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D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

I’ve never run a full pre published adventure path. Those are great to cherry pick but it’s too much work to read it all and stick to it.

When I build games I use the characters as the foundation. For me the whole point of gaming is keeping the players interested. If I want to fight uphill battles; I’ll go to work.
I build the setting long before I even know who will be playing in it, never mind what characters they'll have. Why? Because if I don't have the setting ready then a) I've nothing to pitch and b) if I were to sign up players first they'd then have to wait some 6-15 months while I designed the setting.
So my conclusion to all of this is that sandboxes are in fact an illusion that players let the DM have since they are going to end up doing whatever they want any way.
Largely an incorrect conclusion, I think.
 

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I build the setting long before I even know who will be playing in it, never mind what characters they'll have. Why? Because if I don't have the setting ready then a) I've nothing to pitch and b) if I were to sign up players first they'd then have to wait some 6-15 months while I designed the setting.

Largely an incorrect conclusion, I think.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I appreciate the engagement.

Most of these threads turn into angry exchanges. I don’t feel the usual “verbal diarrhea” serves the community.

Now I’ll get flack for saying so I image.

Have a great weekend.
 

Wasn't trying to suggest 4e and-or 5e are garbage, only that some phone models were.

The difficulty of pitching something that the pitcher doesn't believe in, however, is the same.
You don't believe in your own ability to create an interesting plot?

Because that's what gaming is. The rules and mechanics can help with that--some systems are simply incompatible with some game ideas, and some systems can make a game idea work amazingly--but what you should really be pitching is your story. Not just "ho hum, who wants to play 5e?"
 

So my conclusion to all of this is that sandboxes are in fact an illusion that players let the DM have since they are going to end up doing whatever they want any waway.
See, it is bits like this that feel to me that you are coming across as confrontational, and ignoring anything people are telling you, but you then complain that others are confrontational when using statements similar to yours.

Sandbox as a term isn't pretentious, it is a way of describing a type of campaign, to differentiate against likes of adventure paths. It isn't an illusion as it is a completely different style, much like OSR may be used as a term to differentiate those style of games against 5e. Otherwise isn't any edition naming really an illusion, as everyone is ultimately playing dnd, and apparently the differences between them don't really matter / are an illusion?

I run adventure paths these days, as don't have mental capacity with outside of gaming stuff going on to do sandbox play, but I used to.

Compared to adventure path, where there would be clear hooks / direction that players are expected to go for, in sandbox play i used to play in silver marches or serpent kingdoms, and I can just present some of the information from setting resources, and the players would choose where want to go / what to investigate, whether taking caravans from city to city, investigating rumors or such like, and i would then prepare or use random tables to work out what they then encounter as a result. If they are investigating rumors around serpents, then it would be incumbent on me to have some sort of serpent type thing that they encounter.
It also wasn't beyond the pale for them to come up with own hooks- we wqnt to set up a tavern, or home base, find an abandoned castle to clear out and take over, and then I would support that by coming up with where / how / what challenges they may face, but they have come up with their own hook and what they want to do, I'm not making them do what I want. In the early days when I erred on over prepping, there were plenty of encounters, Dungeons etc that I created that I never used, even if I had wanted to use them, as players wanted to go in different direction.
 

You don't believe in your own ability to create an interesting plot?

Because that's what gaming is. The rules and mechanics can help with that--some systems are simply incompatible with some game ideas, and some systems can make a game idea work amazingly--but what you should really be pitching is your story. Not just "ho hum, who wants to play 5e?"
I have a hard time personally running a game whose mechanics bother me, no matter how enthusiastic I am about the idea.
 
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You don't believe in your own ability to create an interesting plot?
I can create (what I hope will be) interesting plots all day long.

That's unrelated, however, to the system those plots will be run/played under....and as I type that, I think "maybe not entirely". If the plot relies on a certain degree of granularity in resolution, for example, and the system doesn't provide that, the end result might not be so great.
Because that's what gaming is. The rules and mechanics can help with that--some systems are simply incompatible with some game ideas, and some systems can make a game idea work amazingly--but what you should really be pitching is your story. Not just "ho hum, who wants to play 5e?"
Using the double-dog-dare-me-to-do-it example, I wouldn't bother taking a year to design a whole new setting for what's probably going to be a one-to-two month one off; I'd just take my existing setting and convert whatever I had to.

Which means my pitch would have to focus on system: "It's still Akrayna*, but using 5e instead of Victoria Rules." Never mind it would also have to focus on system because while some or our crew would be open to 5e others would not, and I'd need to clear that hurdle before going any further.

I usually don't put specific story or plot details into a pitch because a) I'd rather those things be learned through play and b) I want to leave room for even early-days play to potentially make or force changes to said details before the players/PCs ever find out about them.

* - the name of my game world.
 

The second paragraph talks about things unrelated to the first. The pitching of a pig product (or campaign) has nothing to do with the intended difficulty of said campaign and more to do with the known shortcomings of that product (or game system) which you have to pitch anyway.
Except that that's literally what you said. You literally said you would struggle to convince your players to play in a high-difficulty campaign. That's what made the proposal a 'pig product', in your words!

Not quite.

My argument goes more like:

1. If the rules are going to be changed, players in general hugely prefer those rules being changed in their (or their characters') favour over those rules being changed in their disfavour.
2. Most DMs discuss potential rule changes with their players ahead of time and all DMs have to inform their players of the changes once made.
3. Changing the rules in the players (or PCs') favour makes those discussions immensely easier.
4. To be changed in the players' favour the rules have to be in the players' disfavour to being with. Hence, in order to make life easier on the DMs, default the design to high difficulty and leave it to individual DMs to ease it off, either via options in the DMG or outright houserule.
I don't see the difference, being perfectly honest.

You've explained the reason why it's hard to convince players to accept this. It still comes across as: "if the game is already hard, I don't have to work to convince my players to accept it. Therefore, the game should be hard, to spare me that effort." It's...frankly, really fantastically selfish, from what I'm seeing.

We're a lot more easygoing than that. Odds are high we'd go to one of the "first choices" on the understanding that the other of us gets to pick next time. :)
But that then is also a compromise. Partner A made a concession, "we will go to your first choice tonight", in exchange for a different concession, "we will go to my first choice next time". Those concessions are not onerous burdens, and thus neither of them makes you unhappy. That, in particular, is part of what being "easygoing" means: making reasonable concessions doesn't make you unhappy. It leaves you neutral.

That, and the restaurant case falls under "decision that has to be made right now" on the assumption we don't want to go home hungry.
Sure. Time constraints are one of the things that is most supremely likely to convince a person to seriously and sincerely consider which concessions they're comfortable making and which concessions they aren't. As an example, I personally would prefer to go hungry rather than going to a restaurant with ultra-spicy food, because I'm a wimp when it comes to spicy food. (I like the flavor of well-spiced food, but I do not like the heat of heavily-spiced food.) That's a situation where making that concession would in fact actually make me unhappy. But despite the fact that I prefer Americanized Chinese food over Tex-Mex, say, that doesn't mean I don't also like Tex-Mex; I'm actually quite partial to pollo en mole, for example. So if a friend or hypothetical SO said they wanted to go to El Indio (a local Mexican restaurant chain), and that they'd prefer to go there instead of getting chinese, I would be happy to do that--especially if they further said, "We can go to China Garden next time, I know you like their stuff." Nothing unhappy about making that concession.

A more common case IME would be, to use a gaming example, where two mutually-incompatible changes to a rule have been proposed and each has support from some of the table but not all. The fairly obvious compromise is to leave the rule as is and adopt neither change, but hard experience tells me to be cynical: whoever says "let's compromise by leaving it as is" (usually someone who realizes their position is currently the less-supported) is in fact punting the discussion down the road to provide time to lobby their opponents into changing their minds...or lobby enough of them at least that if it ever comes to a vote they'll win.

As I don't play the lobbying game, I've lost a lot of these over the years.

And so I've learned the hard way: when someone says "compromise" that's a huge red flag screaming settle it once, settle it now, and shut it down.
Well, firstly, that isn't a compromise then. Like that's literally not what compromise means. Instead, that's "let's table this for now." The people saying that to you are gaslighting you. Plain and simple. I'm sorry you've had that experience, but again this is just not what the word "compromise" means. Never has been.
 
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See, it is bits like this that feel to me that you are coming across as confrontational, and ignoring anything people are telling you, but you then complain that others are confrontational when using statements similar to yours.
I’m just interpreting the comments as they come my way. Everyone’s opinions are valid.
I don’t present my responses as facts or other responses as wrong.

I can’t control how others interpret my opinions. I can choose to disengage with statements that I don’t feel further the conversation.

If my players have taught me anything over the years it’s that I’m not the boss of anyone.

My interpretation of the validity of the labels other use have no any affect on…well anything.
 

It's funny.

I've recently run two Ironsworn campaigns with two different groups. Now, these are true sandbox campaigns because not only do the players have 100% control over what they do, they also collectively have control over the challenges they will face. Ironsworn is a bit of an artsy fartsy pass-the-story stick type game. Very much not a trad RPG.

The first group absolutely loved it. They created a campaign far beyond anything I imagined and completely ran with it. They added an undead dragon that was raising armies of zombies, created an entire pantheon of gods and history for the setting and populated it with all sorts of neat stuff. Oh, and they added in the possibility of an invasion by outside forces. Never really resolved that thread. But, in any case, this was as sandbox as you could make it. At the beginning of any session, no one, including me the referee, had the slightest idea where the game would end up by the end of the session.

The second group hated it. The basic comment I got was, "I play RPG's to explore the story/setting the GM creates." They had zero interest in sandbox play and absolutely wanted the DM to roll up the plot wagon and dish out the plot du jour while maintaining a fixed setting that was created before play started.

So, yeah, when people talk about playing sandbox in D&D, I kinda giggle. You can't. D&D is far too traditional to play as an actual non-linear sandbox. There's just FAR too much work to do. At best, you enter a series of very small non-linear adventures created by the DM and presented to the players in the order that the DM decides.
 

You can't. D&D is far too traditional to play as an actual non-linear sandbox. There's just FAR too much work to do. At best, you enter a series of very small non-linear adventures created by the DM and presented to the players in the order that the DM decides.
Respectfully, I disagree that "you can't."

You can, but yes it is an insane amount of work AND being comfortable with a lot of improv, AND you need a lot of player buy-in. Like your second group, if the players really have to be vested in the world and interested in finding things out or it just doesn't work. The players have as much agency in the game as they do in real life, if not a bit more.

So, while it is extremely difficult to get it to work "just right", it is certainly possible.... not likely, perhaps, but possible.
 

Into the Woods

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