D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Hussar]

Perhaps; I could have sworn he was talking about playing or running it.

That wasn't me. Never played Burning Wheel. Sorry.

 

[Hussar]

What do you want people to admit? /snip

Honestly? Nothing. To be frank, I'm not sure why what I'm saying has this huge push back. Most campaigns will slide along the spectrum from linear to non-linear and back and forth throughout the campaign. Sometimes things will be very linear - a travel scenario for example is by definition linear, to a wide open scenario where there is tons of player freedom.

My point is, while there are differences, those differences are not so big.

 

[Hussar]

It's interesting @Bedrockgames that your example isn't from D&D. Does rather reinforce my point about how D&D is somewhat more difficult to run as a sandbox than other systems.

And, good grief, how much material did you need to create two NPC's? To do that in D&D is a LOT more work.

Note, and just so I don't get misunderstood again, I'm going to start adding this disclaimer to posts:

I am not claiming that it is impossible to do sandboxes in D&D. I am claiming that other systems work better for sandboxes since D&D is so prep heavy. I am also claiming that the difference between sandbox and linear campaigns tends to be a lot less than claimed because of the workload required to prepare a sandbox.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's interesting @Bedrockgames that your example isn't from D&D. Does rather reinforce my point about how D&D is somewhat more difficult to run as a sandbox than other systems.

Will answer the rest later but this is the system I use now. In the past I have done similar things with D&D. Some editions are easier though. I have done it with 3E but I think 3E was a big challenge in terms of prep for example. But there is so much OSR sandbox material essentially using variations on D&D, I think it is pretty manageable

 

[AlViking]

Wow.

When I said this, I was pilloried for saying that you need to do massive amounts of legwork in order to actually have a sandbox. Yet, you say exactly the same thing, and no one bats an eye. I mean, you are flat out saying that unless you've done all this legwork, it's not really a sandbox campaign, in direct contradiction to quite a number of posters here who claim to run sandboxes.

No one bats an eye? I just said I wouldn't have that level of detail. If it works for @The Firebird that's fine, it's their choice, their game. I won't tell someone they're running their game wrong but that doesn't mean there is only one way to run any style of game.

 

[Faolyn]

Again, though, that's great to say but, when the rubber meets the road, system matters. Say your group has chosen to enter the "Simple Dungeon of 6 encounters". Bog standard dungeon crawl. It's nicely non-linear - multiple paths are possible and there is no "end goal" other than whatever the players want to achieve. Nicely sandbox right?

But, here's the thing. Most people can't do that on the fly. You have six D&D encounters. That's probably around 10 different stat blocks, each of which is very detailed. You can't do that on the fly. It needs to be prepared. And that takes time. Often, quite a lot of time depending on the level of the PC's.

Now multiply that by a hundred in order to be able to allow enough player choices to count as a sandbox. At the high level of simply describing things, that's easy. But, in actual play? That's a MOUNTAIN of work.

You do realize that there are absolute tons of pre-prepped encounters available out there?

Level Up included them for every CR tier in both of their MMs. Here's an example:

So, if I'm prepping the Dungeon Of Six Encounters, it may take me a minute or two to find and bookmark six pages in the MM that fit with the dungeon's style.

Two seconds of googling led me numerous sites that do similar things. I even found someone who did pre-made encounters in a series of youtube videos.

And you keep ignoring me when I say this, but many people have no problem prepping encounters. Just because you don't want to doesn't make it impossible or even difficult for other people.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And, good grief, how much material did you need to create two NPC's? To do that in D&D is a LOT more work.

I know the system well enough that I did it off the top of my head. With D&D I would generally lean more on modifying stock stats if it were say 3E. But in earlier editions there are less moving parts to worry about.

Note, and just so I don't get misunderstood again, I'm going to start adding this disclaimer to posts:

I am not claiming that it is impossible to do sandboxes in D&D. I am claiming that other systems work better for sandboxes since D&D is so prep heavy. I am also claiming that the difference between sandbox and linear campaigns tends to be a lot less than claimed because of the workload required to prepare a sandbox.

I think D&D works fine for sandbox. The evidence of that is how often it is used by sandbox GMs. People use variations D&D and variations of it for sandbox all the time. Which isn't to say there might not be systems that make it easier. But easier doesn't mean better always. D&D does have a lot of features that also lend it to sandbox too.

 

[Hussar]

Will answer the rest later but this is the system I use now. In the past I have done similar things with D&D. Some editions are easier though. I have done it with 3E but I think 3E was a big challenge in terms of prep for example. But there is so much OSR sandbox material essentially using variations on D&D, I think it is pretty manageable

I totally agree here. That was, I believe, the point I made all along. DnD, because of the level of prep needed, is perhaps not as good as other systems for sandboxes.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I totally agree here. That was, I believe, the point I made all along. DnD, because of the level of prep needed, is perhaps not as good as other systems for sandboxes.

That isn't what I said though. I was acknowledging the challenge that 3E presents. But I wasn't agreeing with your premise that D&D is bad for sandbox. I said 3E presents a big challenge in terms of prep. But 1) You can still do it with 3E if you want, 2) 3E is not all of D&D. It is way different trying to run a sandbox with 3E, 2E/1E, or Basic

 

[Lanefan]

Again, though, that's great to say but, when the rubber meets the road, system matters. Say your group has chosen to enter the "Simple Dungeon of 6 encounters". Bog standard dungeon crawl. It's nicely non-linear - multiple paths are possible and there is no "end goal" other than whatever the players want to achieve. Nicely sandbox right?

Yet again you're conflating adventure design with campaign design.

They are not the same.

All the discussion around sandbox vs anything else is on the level of campaign design. There's really no such thing as a sandbox adventure; there's Jacquaysed adventures, and there's linear adventures, and there's some that kinda do both.

But, here's the thing. Most people can't do that on the fly. You have six D&D encounters. That's probably around 10 different stat blocks, each of which is very detailed. You can't do that on the fly. It needs to be prepared. And that takes time. Often, quite a lot of time depending on the level of the PC's.

Now multiply that by a hundred in order to be able to allow enough player choices to count as a sandbox. At the high level of simply describing things, that's easy. But, in actual play? That's a MOUNTAIN of work.

Sure, which is why you have a stack of published modules ready to rock. If they decide to go to site A you're gonna haul out Secret of Bone Hill, if they go to site B instead then out comes White Plume Mtn., if they go to C they'll find Forge of Fury ready to greet them, and so on and so on. And if they decide to just roam around in the wilderness then random encounter tables are Your Friend.

The sandbox part is their deciding which sites if any they're going to go to, how they're going to get there, what they're going to do on the way, whether they let themselves get sidetracked into something else, how they approach the adventure once they're on site, and so forth.