D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Not quite. I’m saying that the prep for this six encounter dungeon multiplied by the number of locations that the dm provides for the players to explore - a minimum of three at the very least, up to dozens or even hundreds according to some- makes it prohibitively time consuming.
or you have a starting town prepped, the players get familiar with it / it’s NPCs, they pick up some rumors and decide on their first quest, and then the first session is over and you have time to prepare.

Worst case you already have them travel to the site and have some encounters along the way and then stop, so you can start the next session fresh at the site.

You do not need a 100 sites ready and waiting to start, you can build them ‘just in time’
 

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Not quite. I’m saying that the prep for this six encounter dungeon multiplied by the number of locations that the dm provides for the players to explore - a minimum of three at the very least, up to dozens or even hundreds according to some- makes it prohibitively time consuming.
Again, that's what you say, but that's really not true. You don't have the time to do it. Perhaps you aren't using the right methods.

Let's take your Simple Dungeon of Six Encounters. OK, what's the dungeon? A home for goblins, maybe? We'll say this is a typical D&D world where adventurers routinely perform home invasions on goblins. Well, you only need a couple of statblocks, all of which are handily in the MM, with others online if you feel that you want to expand on those. Maybe you can go fancy and bring in some wargs or other "pets." I have vague recollections of some sort of sentient, talking, goblin-snake-ferret thing from an old monster book (maybe a Pathfinder bestiary) that I thought was cool when I read it, but that's easy enough to take something else, like a giant ferret and reskin it (I don't need to find the original statblock; my mental image is enough for me to go on). Maybe, if you really want to, add some other creatures that are sharing this lair with the goblins, like maybe strangling roots that have learned to not harass the goblins.

OK, so what's in this lair? Shrine, kitchen/larger, meeting room/dining hall, chief's room, bunk rooms (2), storage/loot room. Six places for encounters. You can even add a few more: a warg stable, the hallways, a hidden back room for goblins to go when they want some "alone time," a secret treasure room, a goblin tinkerer's room.

Draw some squiggles for the lair or use a random dungeon generator. This is the first time a random generator may come in handy.

Distribute the stat blocks as necessary. Determine some treasure. Here's the second time a generator may come in handy.

Decide if you want to put anything in the dungeon that leads to different areas of your campaign setting, that furthers a PC's plots or goals, or that hints at things to come.

If your PCs are the "kill them all and loot the bodies" type, you're done.

If they're the "lets talk to the goblins" type, you probably already have the reason the PCs are going to be doing that home invasion. Just come up with a few different motivations and personalities so they're people and not just cookie cutters of each other. A sentence or two is enough.

So that'll take, what, a half hour, an hour to complete? Maybe two hours, if you decide to seriously personalize every goblin or every part of their lair. And depending on how long you have to play and what your PCs are like, this could be good for many sessions.

Or to put it another way. Apparently DnD is fantastic at sandbox play if I choose to incorporate dozens if not hundreds of pages of material written by someone else. Doing it on my own is too much work according to virtually everyone in this thread.
I'm pretty certain you're the only one who's said that (that we've said that you have to have these resources). Pre-made encounters are a good resource for people who don't have the time or interest in making their own, but they certainly aren't required. I'm writing up my encounters all by my lonesome. The most time-consuming aspect so far has been me trying to figure out if I want mimics and where I want them to be.

The encounters I'm prepping are for areas the players said they wanted to go into. If they decide at the last minute they don't want to, that's fine. I had fun prepping them and I can use them elsewhere or figure out what happened since the PCs didn't do anything about them. If the PCs don't encounter the people testing the monster-making spell, then they'll simply see newspapers talking about the mass destruction caused by the monsters. Last time I ran, a bunch of the game got derailed because one of the PCs decided she needed an apartment, so she and some other PCs went to go get her one. I didn't actually need to prep anything there. We were playing D&D (well, Level Up, which is D&D+) as complete improv.

So in reality, the only thing that's "hard" or "time-consuming" is the statblocks and things like spells and (in LU) maneuvers, and all of those things are in books. Unless you count "using the game's actual published material" as part of those "hundreds of pages written by someone else," in which case for shame, what are you doing playing a game someone else wrote?
 

Yes, but I think that IS what other people's point has been about. Efficiency or ease is sometimes not what some people want. The time thinking about their setting, the time creating maps, the time thinking about modules to run, the time looking at generators - that can be the juice in playing the game.

We've had several threads now that:
1) Pose a problem.
2) Try to argue that it's a BIG problem.
3) Explain why D&D is terrible, bad, not great, mediocre, or average at solving this problem.
4) Pose possible solutions.
5) SURPRISE! All those solutions was Game X all along that I really wanted to talk about.

And a lot of people get stuck back at 2 and 3 because they never really bought into the problem to begin with.
Exactly. Zero problem with creating, running, or playing sandbox style in D&D-like games here. Flying high.
 


Yes, but I think that IS what other people's point has been about. Efficiency or ease is sometimes not what some people want. The time thinking about their setting, the time creating maps, the time thinking about modules to run, the time looking at generators - that can be the juice in playing the game.
Fair enough. But, again, "I don't want efficiency or ease so I'll use D&D to create sandboxes with" is hardly praising D&D is it? :p

But, see, that's the thing. I've never said that you can't do it. I've just said that there are easier ways to do it. And, frankly, it seems that there is a lot of agreement out there. People running sandboxes aren't using 5e D&D - @Lanefan and @Bedrockgames are not using 5e D&D, for example. It doesn't look like @Bedrockgames is using D&D at all from that example. Not sure what system that is (although it does look cool).

When the biggest proponents of using D&D to run sandboxes aren't actually using D&D, then, well, saying that other systems make running sandboxes easier shouldn't be all that contentious.
 

or you have a starting town prepped, the players get familiar with it / it’s NPCs, they pick up some rumors and decide on their first quest, and then the first session is over and you have time to prepare.

Worst case you already have them travel to the site and have some encounters along the way and then stop, so you can start the next session fresh at the site.

You do not need a 100 sites ready and waiting to start, you can build them ‘just in time’
How did they pick their first quest? What rumours? Rumours of adventure locations that the DM hasn't created yet? How did they travel to the location that doesn't exist yet? How did they know where it was? How did the DM know how long it would take to get there? So many questions.

And note, without the DM having anything outside the town prepped, what could the players actually do? It's not like they can say, "Hey, I want to check out X" when nothing outside the town has been detailed yet.

I'd LOVE to see you be able to "just in time" create using D&D. That would be very impressive.
 

How did they pick their first quest? What rumours? Rumours of adventure locations that the DM hasn't created yet? How did they travel to the location that doesn't exist yet? How did they know where it was? How did the DM know how long it would take to get there? So many questions.
How would you answer those questions in your system of choice?
 

Well, you only need a couple of statblocks, all of which are handily in the MM, with others online if you feel that you want to expand on those. Maybe you can go fancy and bring in some wargs or other "pets." I
Wow, that sounds like the most boring adventure I've seen. A couple of stat blocks for six encounters? Maybe a pet? No NPC's, no prisoners, nothing? Sure, if we're going to make the most basic, prosaic, boring adventures possible, then sure. No worries.

It's funny. The first scenario in Lost Mines of Phandelver has 8 encounters. The Cragmaw hideout. Now, this is for 1st level characters (note, I notice you immediately chose the simplest, LOWEST level adventure you could to illustrate how easy it was. Let's see you try that with a 9th level party, but, I digress). True, it is 8 keyed locations, not six. But, close enough. Only 7 have actual encounters.

Six different stat blocks, including one NPC, several traps that need to be statted out, stats for things like the bridge and the flood trap. Seven typed pages (although a bit of art) but no stat blocks are listed.

All for the simplest 1st level adventure. Still, twice as many stat blocks as you were using. And a heck of a lot more interesting adventure than a handful of goblins guarding a pie.

Fair enough. If this is what you find to be compelling play that is exciting for your group? Fantastic. Six rooms (note, I repeatedly stated six ENCOUNTERS, not rooms), the most cliche, prosaic, uninspired adventure that a random generator can provide.

Yeah, not really all that impressive.
 

How would you answer those questions in your system of choice?
Well, if I was doing D&D? I'd have a setting bible with lots of stuff. I'd do the prep work. :D

Now though? Yeah, I'd likely lean into something like Ironsworn (although, to be fair, that's a fairly narrow genre and not as broad as D&D - I'd have to hunt for another game if I wanted something as encompassing as D&D) where you'd start with a village. Player makes a Move - Gathering Information, for example. On a strong success, I'd make something up that leads them on an adventure. If I had no idea, I'd turn to the rest of the players and ask for options. Or, possibly, Ironsworn does come with an Ask the Oracle mechanic that allows for some random inspiration.

The simplest Ask the Oracle is Yes/No questions. So, in one episode where we did pretty much exactly this, I framed the question - "Is this a supernatural event?" (No) "Is there a mystery?" (Yes). "Is it a murder mystery?" (No) "Missing person?" (Yes)

Ah, ok, I've got enough to work with now. It's just starting out so there is a missing child that needs rescuing. I'm not going to worry too much about the mystery yet, because there's time for that as they progress.

In Ironsworn, when you undertake a quest, you swear an Iron Vow (resolving those vows is how you gain XP to advance your character). So, the players swear - which can fail btw, resulting in more complications. Play progresses from there.

Note, the players could make multiple Gather Knowledge checks and spawn multiple events. As the players progress through a vow, checks can also spawn more complications. So on and so forth.

By the end of the scenario, we could discover (and I'm making this up, this is hypothetical) that the missing child is the illegitimate child of the leader of the town and was taken into the woods Hansel and Gretal style to be eaten by a witch. At the outset of the task, literally no one at the table knows anything. It is all revealed during play.

Basically, an entire couple of sessions of play could easily be generated by a couple of die rolls and some leading questions. Totally sandbox, total player freedom.
 

Totally sandbox, total player freedom.
I find it interesting that you characterise it as sandbox. Not saying I disagree - just that it is a broader usage than I'm familiar with.

Understood thus, probably quite a bit of my RPGing counts as sandbox play.

That isn't an answer to @Lanefan 's question though, just a complaint about it. What do you do?
It depends on the RPG I'm playing. I've got quite a bit of actual play that you can check out if you like - I've linked to it in plenty of threads that you've participated in.
 
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