D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[mamba]

So you're fine with something that...isn't really a sandbox, but calls itself one?

For goodness' sake, I thought the one thing we all agreed here was that railroad and sandbox were opposites!

Hussar’s sandbox is mostly ad-libbed and I do not see you calling it a railroad. Also, I doubt a railroad is ‘a considered’ amount of it

I am fine with a mixture of ad lib and pre-prepped material as long as the GM is being considered in their application of it and keeping this solid once they are set down for consistency.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But how is the GM who is just randomly deciding doing anything different than the one who has prepared a specific plot ahead of time? Isn’t it just the timing of their decision-making that’s different?

These things are completely different. If you plan a plot ahead of time, you already have a plan for what the players should be doing. If you are reacting to actions the players take and creating around that, you are letting them go do whatever. I've been on a railroad and I have been in a pure ad lib session (one that wasn't a sandbox but where the GM just ad libbed everything). Those are two totally different experiences on the player side

It’s not about what’s decided so much as how it’s decided. And in that, the two methods seem significantly similar.

I agree that how a GM makes this decision is going to matter. And in a sandbox a lot of people are going to prioritize what makes the most sense in terms of consistency, believability, established facts of the setting. But I also do think you can take this too far and leave out the fun if you aren't careful.

 

[mamba]

And if you set down too-hard things about what NPCs are and what they'll do etc., this is functionally equivalent to an invisible railroad too. Which was the point of the "action resolution needs an independent standard" argument--by giving THAT much control, THAT much absolute power over what does or doesn't happen, what can or can't be attempted, etc., the ability to make such "campaign changed" choices vanishes.

if using that power to force the players into a direction, sure, there is nothing that says it needs to be used in that way or be used at all however

 

[Umbran]

You did not use those words. You have--now repeatedly--argued that that standard has nothing in common, at all, with what people mean when they say "sandbox." This is functionally identical to writing it off as a wonky ridiculous thing that has no bearing on the present conversation.

Mod note:
Restating other people's positions incorrectly is a major way in which discussions go off the rails.
Maybe spend less effort trying to tell people what they said, especially if the goal is to dismiss them.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And if you set down too-hard things about what NPCs are and what they'll do etc., this is functionally equivalent to an invisible railroad too. Which was the point of the "action resolution needs an independent standard" argument--by giving THAT much control, THAT much absolute power over what does or doesn't happen, what can or can't be attempted, etc., the ability to make such "campaign changed" choices vanishes.

How is this functionally equivalent to a railroad. He isn't setting down what actins the NPC should take in advance. He is basing his decision in that moment, in reaction to the players, based on what he knows about the NPC. That isn't a railroad. He is describing an organic process, where the players actions matter a great deal and he hasn't planned out stuff in advance. He is responding to the players, not railroading them

 

[Umbran]

So you don't like when people tell you how to do something and prefer when they just support your already preconceived notions and style? Ok. Good job doing the thing, I guess...

Mod Note:
The snark is going to be a great basis for people reporting you are a rude troll, and they won't be entirely wrong.

So, unless you want the results that come with that, maybe you'll want to dial it back.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Hussar’s sandbox is mostly ad-libbed and I do not see you calling it a railroad. Also, I doubt a railroad is ‘a considered’ amount of it

Railroading is about making players go in a direction they aren't trying to go. I.E. you have an adventure planned, and they try to say 'no' to it, but then you make things happen which pretty much mean they have to go on the adventure

 

[AlViking]

But how is the GM who is just randomly deciding doing anything different than the one who has prepared a specific plot ahead of time? Isn’t it just the timing of their decision-making that’s different?

It’s not about what’s decided so much as how it’s decided. And in that, the two methods seem significantly similar.

Who says the GM is just randomly deciding? For example in a recent session the characters came across some Githyanki who's ship had crashed and believed the PCs had something to do with it. In truth the PCs were dealing with the same threat. So while I had the Githyanki approach cautiously and spread out, they weren't being overtly aggressive. When the captain started talking it was obvious that he considered the characters to be of lower class than them, because that's they're culture and world view. That's all I had planned if the group decided to investigate or get close to the crashed ship.

After the initial opening scene? I didn't really have anything planned. There was a common threat, Githyanki are slavers but not automatically aggressive and if the two sides had come to an agreement they would have upheld their side. They could have parted ways peacefully, the Githyanki could have helped resolve the common threat, in theory the players could have assisted the Githyanki in repairing their ship. Any number of things could have happened. Unfortunately for the rest of the players the barbarian won initiative and attacked, starting a fight they barely survived.

In a linear game, much less a railroad, I would have had a predetermined outcome to this simple encounter. Will this encounter make a difference in the future? Not sure. Future Githyanki aren't likely to be more aggressive than they normally would have been because there were no witnesses, but if they had cooperated perhaps there would have been a chance of support or aid. While I had no expectation of them helping the Githyanki get out of their predicament if they had then there would have been a debt to be repaid. I have no idea what it would have led to in the future. At this point I have no plan on involving Githyanki in the future, this was an unusual interaction for my world but made sense in context of the shared threat.

In a similar way the characters are now in a situation where they can't go back to their home town because one of the characters slapped an officer and there's a warrant for her arrest. They are being actively hunted by a group because a wizard turned invisible and escaped a fight. They have made an ally I had not expected because they went out of their way to be understanding and kind when they could have ignored a situation or been cruel. Campaigns regularly go in directions I had never anticipated. I've dropped hints of threats and some events could lead to other possible options in the future, but it's up to the players to decide what direction we go next.

 

[Remathilis]

Railroading is about making players go in a direction they aren't trying to go. I.E. you have an adventure planned, and they try to say 'no' to it, but then you make things happen which pretty much mean they have to go on the adventure

I mean, all games then have a point where they become railroads. I once again refer to the idea of deciding we want to leave your world on a Spelljammer and visit Faerun. If there are no Spelljamming vessels on your world (regardless of your rationale) for us to go to Faerun on, are we not on a railroad (even if it's a rather large one)?

That's part of the problem with defining railroad strictly by DM opposition to player choice. At some point the DM says something is impossible and the train tracks appear under foot.

 

[AlViking]

I mean, all games then have a point where they become railroads. I once again refer to the idea of deciding we want to leave your world on a Spelljammer and visit Faerun. If there are no Spelljamming vessels on your world (regardless of your rationale) for us to go to Faerun on, are we now on a railroad?

That's part of the problem with defining railroad strictly by DM opposition to player choice. At some point the DM says something is impossible and the train tracks appear under foot.

The sand is always limited at some point by the box that encases it.