D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

So you're describing one process here - obviously it's not the only one that a GM might use, when having to apply the rule call for a roll if the outcome is uncertain.

It's also pretty obvious that, for any given set of established facts/details, there are probably multiple ways of staying true to them. This seems true for things ranging from the technical/scientific - say, the risk of a bushfire being caused by lighting a campfire in a forest - though to the interpersonal and intimate - say, the likelihood that a person will respond to a proposal of marriage.

Sometimes "staying true" to something also involves notions of aesthetic or even moral value - I don't know if you intend to include that, but common human experience tells us that this is also something where multiple ways forward can be seen to be ways of staying true.

In my experience of GMing sandboxes using "realism" or "what would make sense in the setting", these multiple possibilities for staying true and making sense and being realistic, given the context can generate disagreement between players and the GM. Depending on the point in the resolution process that the principle is invoked and applied, it can also produce a sense of unfairness or capriciousness, if the GM imposes a consequence that they believe would make sense, but that was not anticipated or expected by a player whose PC is affected.

That's not a reason not to do it, although it's a reason that I no longer GM using that method. I think even for those who do GM using that method, I think it is a reason to be thoughtful about how the principles is applied, to what extent the GM should act unilaterally, how to go about establishing clear stakes before the dice are rolled, etc.

Circumstances in settings are always nuanced. As a result, there are always several plausible possibilities. In passive entertainment like novels, films, and shows, the author/director decides the possibilities that will be followed and crafts the result as a coherent narrative. While many authors/directors don't know what stakes they are aiming for, thus the final shape of the narrative is not clear until they have done at least a first pass. However, most do have a clear creative goal in mind and thus pick the possibilities that serve that goal the best.

More instructive is history. One aspect of history is that it is a record of which possibilities people chose given their circumstances at a particular time. These choices are often made when the stakes are unclear and the "right" path given the individual's goals is uncertain.

Running through this is the path not taken, the "What if". What if a copy of Order 192 wasn't used to wrap cigars and then lost. What if the French decided to colonize Tasmania in 1798. What if Galadriel decided to accept the One Ring when it was offered to her. And so on.

Then there is the matter of choice itself. With narratives and history, we have the benefit of hindsight. Looking back, we see how the narrative or history unfolds, how each choice leads to consequences that result in further choices with their consequences. What is often missed is that both in narratives and in life, those involved have to make these choices with limited information, often with limited time not knowing what the stakes are or the range of consequences.

Sandbox Campaigns are about embracing the What If, embracing the possibilities, and embracing the uncertainty. I often commented that the goal of sandbox campaigns is to let players trash the setting as their character. A crucial element of that is the fact that there are always multiple plausible possibilities given the circumstances of the campaign at any one moment. Being free to trash the setting means being free to pick which possibility to explore.

Another part of the appeal of sandbox campaigns is the challenge of making these choices while being uncertain of the stakes or the range of consequences. That's why the role of a referee is crucial in sandbox campaigns. Why is it crucial?

From Peterson's Playing at the World 2e Vol. II.
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In the case of Sandbox Campaign, the central role of the human referee allows the players the same broad latitude that they would enjoy if they were really present in the setting, adventuring as their character.

And part of this is the factor of uncertainty.

From Peterson's Playing at the World 2e Vol. II.
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The uncertainty that a commander faces on the battlefield is a crucial critical goal of the younger Reiswitz's wargame. Likewise, a similar creative goal of uncertainty is important to sandbox campaigns.

Embracing myriad possibilities and uncertainty is important to Sandbox campaigns. However, these are goals that have to be implemented by human beings, particularly by the individual who is the referee of the campaign. An important challenge is one you noted.
In my experience of GMing sandboxes using "realism" or "what would make sense in the setting", these multiple possibilities for staying true and making sense and being realistic, given the context can generate disagreement between players and the GM.

Sandbox campaign works best when the referee is a neutral arbiter, for many of the same reasons the Reiswitz uses.

From Playing at the World 2e, Vol II.
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The referee must be impartial, as that is what builds trust among the players that the referee's decisions are fair. I have developed a series of best practices that I use to establish my impartiality. Others have their own methods.

One of them is being open to discussion and questions even during play. I won't discuss things that would be considered spoilers after the campaign is concluded, or in many cases, several sessions later, when specific spoilers are no longer relevant. I'm happy to hash things out and walk players through why I made the decisions I did.

This is not quite like how Reiswitz and other early wargames taught, but their primary audience was military personnel, and training them. My circumstances are different.

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I strongly recommend not doing the above and being open to discussion and questions at any point in the campaign. Our circumstances are a group of folks trying to have fun with a hobby during our limited free time.

This is but one of the possible techniques to establish that you are an impartial referee and to gain trust among those playing.

Wrapping this up, discussing the issue of uncertainty and differing views of what was possible was a common topic in early discussions about sandbox campaigns.

From 2007, also a thread I participated in.
Sandbox Style: How to Handle Challenge Levels.

This is a discussion that started out about Challenge Levels in Sandbox campaign but touched on issues relevant to trust, uncertainty, and different ideas about what is plausible. Largely because the expectation of a campaign that relies on Challenge Levels is very different from the expectation of Sandbox Campaigns.

In sandbox play - as opposed to a cop-out/hybrid where the severity of challenges is scaled to the party - the responsibility for managing threats rests on the shoulders of the players, who have to make choices whether to explore a certain hazardous area, range far from civilisation centres or not, etcetera. Collecting information becomes very valuable. Rumors, and listening to them, is very important; augury and more advanced divination spells become better lifesavers than fireball (no exagerration - PCs in my campaigns have been saved more times by the first than the second) and of course, sacrificing to deities or consulting sages for their advice is a prime way loot is spent. This is, in many ways, outside the currently fashionable D&D paradigm. It is often the experienced players with set-in playing procedures, who are less successful in it, and newbies who adapt more quickly (while certain old hands are immediately "at home", and fare very, very well - that's the mythical "player skill" in action ;)).
 

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one stubborn character does not make it a railroad, not even slightly. If this is your threshold for it, we will never see eye to eye on this or what is required to prevent one
It's not just "one stubborn character". It's "one stubborn character with a completely and objectively ridiculous viewpoint in 99.99% of cases".

It's going to take a HELL of a lot of work--no pun intended--to make me think it's in any way reasonable for a person to believe "if I drink alcohol, I and my entire family will face eternal torment" isn't just the DM inventing whatever they need to invent to ensure that this NPC is infinitely stubborn. Which is precisely the problem @soviet is pointing out. The DM can, almost always, invent whatever they want in a way that is: (a) consistent with the fiction, (b) using real-world logic, and (c) radically restricts player choice, in any system that gives D&D-like latitude to the DM and functionally nothing to players....unless granted to them by that very DM.
 

Then you shouldn't either. Don't accuse Ironsworn or similar systems of being ridiculous anti-realistic "anything goes", if you're going to get mad about "insulting" descriptions of your preferred stuff.

I'm not mad. I've never made any accusations about Irownsworn or any other system being anti-realistic. Collaborative world building isn't something I enjoy but I'm glad other people have that option.
 

I'm not mad. I've never made any accusations about Irownsworn or any other system being anti-realistic. Collaborative world building isn't something I enjoy but I'm glad other people have that option.
But you keep describing this general category of gaming in openly inflammatory ways. Whether or not you are "mad", you have definitely verbally bristled--and requested retractions or even apologies--for what you consider insults to things you like. You then proceed to describe other things in openly insulting ways.

I am asking you to not do that anymore. Is that acceptable? Can you recognize that collaborative worldbuilding isn't some instant ticket to total anti-realism-ville and is instead capable of being just as realistic and verisimilitudinous as any other approach?

If your method isn't guaranteed to result in railroading, and you--ahem--strenuously dispute any characterization that it does, or even risks railroading, it would be a reasonable courtesy to not post characterizations of collaborative worldbuilding that claim or imply that it is inherently and necessarily antagonistic to realism, verisimilitude, groundedness, "real-world logic", etc. etc., whatever term you prefer.
 

I don't agree with that. I know people who would do this; or at least, who would like to think they would.
....Seriously?

"If I ever drink any alcohol, my entire family will suffer eternal torment"?

What, exactly, leads to this? Because no religion I know--and I've studied pretty much every "major" world religion, with a very lenient standard for what "major" means--has any prescription even remotely like that. Even the most strident would not punish literally every person you're related to for a sinful deed.

It's just using an extreme case to show that the general principle is unsound. If the king holding onto his kingdom isn't railroading, then the priest upholding his vow isn't either.
Nah. I don't accept that. One of these things is not like the other--and that's precisely the problem.

When you can invent anything you want as a belief--because you, as DM, have total control over that and, per your example, any belief no matter how ridiculous is perfectly valid--then there is no constraint by "real-world logic" nor "what the DM already knows". Because "what the DM already knows" gets set by...whatever the DM feels like. Which was rejected above as an utterly inappropriate and incorrect description--and now you are using that very thing as an example!
 

This is the thing. And both are totally fine by the way. You can go with either approach. But if you are focused on character agency and having things arise out of what people actually said, not what they rolled, this is a consideration. Again, both approaches can work, but there are valid reasons for not wanting to use a strong social skill system
Not wanting to make this about skill systems, but my point is that if a player can at all times have the autonomy to play their PC they see fit, a DM (being a player at the table) can call on the same privilege. It's no more a railroad to say an NPC won't drink (except under pain of death) than it is to say the PC paladin will not be seduced by the NPC strumpet in the bar, regardless of how well she rolls because the player won't allow it.*

* Barring magic like mind control, of course.
 

I see this conjecture put forward from time to time. Maybe there are particular instances of it being true, but I don't find it to be plausible as a generalisation. I don't think most GMs are creating worlds that are such integrated wholes that new elements can't be added.

I mean, JRRT seems to have added new elements to Middle Earth all the time, and he was a much more sophisticated "world builder" than the typical RPG GM.
It is pretty DM dependent. And tone dependent. Tolkien might have been fine with some northern barbarian clans, but adding Tortles to the setting is a no go.
It's not just "one stubborn character". It's "one stubborn character with a completely and objectively ridiculous viewpoint in 99.99% of cases".
There are a lot of views on the earth. Many of them may strike others as ridiculous.
....Seriously?

"If I ever drink any alcohol, my entire family will suffer eternal torment"?

What, exactly, leads to this? Because no religion I know--and I've studied pretty much every "major" world religion, with a very lenient standard for what "major" means--has any prescription even remotely like that. Even the most strident would not punish literally every person you're related to for a sinful deed.
Sure, the whole family is a bit far. I'm gonna pivot from this example because it is getting a bit close to real world religion. I'll just say in general that there are a lot of different viewpoints on the earth, and a lot of people feel very strongly about them and are not willing to compromise.
 

Flip the scenario: is there ever a situation where you would force a player to roleplay his character a certain way because the NPC used a skill on them. For example, the PC must back off because the NPC successfully intimidated him. Or he must believe the NPC because he failed an insight check against the NPCs deception. Would you allow an NPC to seduce a PC or have the PC give the NPC a treasured item just because they do well on a persuasion roll? And if not, why?
This depends on the system. A lot of games give PCs a privileged position above the results of such rolls. Those that don't do this may instead use stake setting, to agree on what outcomes are permissible. In any game I wouldn't want to force a player to roleplay a certain way. They might need to incorporate a particular factor (you're intimidated, you can't see through his lies) but how they do it would still be up to them.

But as I say PCs are in a privileged position. I don't accept that such a privilege should extend to the GM's many NPCs.
 

But you keep describing this general category of gaming in openly inflammatory ways. Whether or not you are "mad", you have definitely verbally bristled--and requested retractions or even apologies--for what you consider insults to things you like. You then proceed to describe other things in openly insulting ways.

I am asking you to not do that anymore. Is that acceptable? Can you recognize that collaborative worldbuilding isn't some instant ticket to total anti-realism-ville and is instead capable of being just as realistic and verisimilitudinous as any other approach?

If your method isn't guaranteed to result in railroading, and you--ahem--strenuously dispute any characterization that it does, or even risks railroading, it would be a reasonable courtesy to not post characterizations of collaborative worldbuilding that claim or imply that it is inherently and necessarily antagonistic to realism, verisimilitude, groundedness, "real-world logic", etc. etc., whatever term you prefer.
I've stated my opinion and why some styles of game don't work for me. It's not derogatory or inflammatory to say that I wouldn't feel the same immersion in a collaborative world building game. It's just stating my opinion. I've never said there is not a potential risk of a railroad in a D&D style game. I disagree that it's a major issue or one that requires a drastic change to the approach of the game. If a GM runs a railroad or any other type of game I'm not interested in I won't play with that GM. It's rare that I felt like I had to stop attending a game but it has happened.

That's far different from calling any and all GM decisions being arbitrary, pulled out of their ass or any of the other multitude of accusations you've made.
 

I think making it a d20 roll at all implies a substantially greater chance of convincing someone than there really is.
Bit again this is where context comes in. I don't presume that anyone walking up to the King as a complete stranger, a nobody, with no leverage at all, has a 5% chance of taking over the kingdom. But if the characters can build a proper context and leverage... why not?
 

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