D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

I mean, okay? I love sessions that involve this sort of stuff--I'd say about a third of my DW sessions include it--and I have no problem calling it that.

It's one thing to react to stuff which is obviously or overtly offensive. This, to me, reads like getting mad about an accurate metaphor. Like it's pretty reasonable to find the "pretend elfgames" descriptor irritating and insulting, because that's quite literally the point (it's an attempt to claim that TTRPGs aren't and shouldn't be considered serious, which is a major mistake IMO; they are often not serious, but that's quite different!) But...like...doing that sort of pure "we are just two people talking to each other about imaginary aesthetics in a way that only affects play by establishing that two characters relate to one another"...that's what playing in a dollhouse is! Like that's very literally what playing with dolls is all about--and I would know, I played with dolls as a child even though my parents didn't approve (they were somewhat more conservative then than they are now.)

When a descriptor is both accurate to the actions conducted and accurate with regard to the point and purpose of the thing being analogized, why is that an insult? I genuinely don't understand.

Again, not interested in taking this down another detour. I don't think we need a dollhouse conversation here. But I think ti is pretty obvious a lot of people are going to dislike this label being applied to their gaming. Doesn't mean you have to. You can love the term. Most gamers I know probably wouldn't embrace the dollhouse label
 

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Or they mount a defense of the walls, or try to sneak past enemy lines, or try to open negotiations, or sail to find allies...
Seriously?

Like for real, seriously?

A band of five guys ain't gonna mount a defense of the walls. If people COULD sneak out, it wouldn't be a siege! If it were open to negotiations, it wouldn't be a siege! And if they "sail to find allies", job done, the DM got what they wanted.
 

If you can't trust your GM, I really don't know why you play. It seems like it wouldn't be fun.
Again you resort to the "just trust me bro" defense. It doesn't work. I'm sorry, it just doesn't.

Just because I trust someone doesn't mean I think everything they do is perfect. Just because I'm willing to work with someone doesn't mean I cannot then subsequently find an issue.

And, in my extensive experience, social groups which rely overmuch on implication and "social contract" are some of the worst things to navigate. Because you never actually know what's okay. You can't actually communicate, because oh no, that's making rules, we don't need any rules, we can just talk to each other like people!

Rules are useful, and I'm sick and tired of people treating that like it means I'm some kind of paranoid crazy person who cannot socialize or interact or game. Rules are tools. Stop acting like the use of tools is somehow "distrustful".

Especially if you're ever going to then make an argument about DMs trusting player motivations. Because that's rank hypocrisy, if you do do that. And I'm fairly sure you have, at some point.
 

I don't see how it has any effect at all on railroading. Just because you aren't assuming the PCs will interact with it, doesn't mean you cannot be nailing down one and only one valid path forward. Design a religion that is utterly unpersuadable--by anyone, PC or not. Design a marauding horde, a reasonable thing in almost any fantasy setting, which reasonably besieges towns. Said thing can then be used to control player motions in various ways.

(snip)

So...I'm gonna level with you, this reads as "the process is reinforced by my solemn promise not to railroad." Which really makes the argument seem both circular and superfluous, even before the things I've said above.

We are working from fundamentally different assumptions about what constitutes railroading.

In my view, the distinction lies in whether the players’ choices are constrained by authorial intent or by the circumstances of the setting. A marauding horde that exists in the setting, that moves and acts according to its own goals, isn’t a railroad. It’s a situation. If the players want to negotiate with it, undermine it, flee from it, join it, or find another way around it, they can. None of those outcomes are predetermined by me; they emerge naturally from what would happen if the marauding horde actually existed. That’s the opposite of a railroad, that's World in Motion, responding to what the players choose to do.

If a referee uses setting elements to funnel players toward predetermined outcomes, then it doesn’t matter how “organic” it looks, it’s still a railroad. But that’s not what I do. That’s why referee intent and technique matter. A referee committed to impartial adjudication, and to letting player choices shape the direction of the campaign, can use the same prep and arrive at a fundamentally different experience.

As for first-person roleplaying: you’ve said you don’t see how it’s relevant, but for me it’s part of how the world becomes actionable. When I roleplay NPCs, it’s not just flavor, it’s how I communicate what the players’ characters are encountering. The way NPCs act, what they say, how they respond, all of it stems from the situation and their motivations. That’s what gives players the full range of social, moral, and tactical options. It’s how they make meaningful decisions. It’s also how we, as a table, assess whether things are fair and consistent. Because players experience the world through first-person engagement, when questions arise later, we can refer back to how the situation unfolded based on what was known about the setting and characters, rather than hidden behind unseen decisions.

It’s clear that we disagree on this foundation. You don’t believe referee intent or adjudication techniques matter, while I believe they are central to preserving player agency. As a result, we’re arriving at very different conclusions.

At this point, I think we have both clearly articulated our points, explored the nuances, and stated our conclusions. Those reading this thread can judge for themselves which approach better fits their table and goals.
 

A band of five guys ain't gonna mount a defense of the walls. If people COULD sneak out, it wouldn't be a siege! If it were open to negotiations, it wouldn't be a siege! And if they "sail to find allies", job done, the DM got what they wanted.

Aside: Sneaking small numbers of people out of a siege is a pretty standard thing, both in fantasy fiction and history.

And negotiations during sieges were also pretty common. Negotiations were most of the point of sieges - you lock them in there until they run out of supplies and are ready to talk.
 

Then you clearly didn't see the multiple people saying that PbtA games (amongst various others) are inherently opposed to realistic, self-consistent worlds.

Really? When? Where? I've stated that it's not my preference. That for me it would feel less immersive. I've never made any comments on being realistic or self-consistent and I don't remember anyone else stating that. I've just never really enjoyed the collaborative world building games I've tried.
 

But game design is not simply a matter of preference. There can be a contrast of techniques. There can be criticism of techniques. A game system can set out to pursue a goal and then objectively fail to meet that goal. (Consider, for example, that 3rd edition was designed very specifically in order to be MORE balanced than 2e was, and it objectively failed to do so, given 3e gave us such delights as Pun-Pun and the Wish and the Word.) A game's rules are not merely a matter of preference, they need to achieve things, that's the whole point of designing them.

And it's why, even people I have seen be far to the extreme end of "system doesn't matter" still complain about something or other being "overpowered" or the like, a claim that only makes sense if system does, in fact, matter!
I never said system doesn't matter. I love RPG systems, and think they're quite important to play and design! Just probably not the same systems you like. And that's the part that's just about preference.
 

The DM can, almost always, invent whatever they want in a way that is: (a) consistent with the fiction, (b) using real-world logic, and (c) radically restricts player choice, in any system that gives D&D-like latitude to the DM and functionally nothing to players....unless granted to them by that very DM.
I am not saying they cannot, to me that ability in and of itself is not a problem however, abuse is the problem. If the game tries to prevent that possibility by basically making anything possible if the character just rolls well enough, then I consider that at least as much of a problem however, and not a fix.
 


I am not saying we should have a conversation about it. I am just saying don't be surprised when people react strongly to having their play style labeled Dollhouse Play

I mean Dollhouse Play specifically refers to significant stretches of play without either resolving or establishing meaningful stakes. If you see a description of dollhouse play and see it as reflective of your game, I'm not sure what to tell you. Do you feel like that's descriptive of your game or that it's not a phenomenon that happens out in the wild (in some people's play)?
 

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