D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

And that right there you're taking away the players' ability to drive.

Part of both sandbox and player-driven play is to let the players decide what minor stuff they're going to spend loads of time on and what they're going to largely skip over.

Here, if you describe the scene at the gate with the two guards casually asking questions of the farmers bringing their goods in to market, it's up to the players to decide whether they're going to go deep in the weeds about how they deal with these guards or whether they're just going to head in through the gate...or turn around and go somewhere else, whatever.

In other words, give 'em the scene and let the players decide what in it is meaningful to them; and if it means the session is largely spent dealing with two gate guards rather than all the various deep intrigues in town then so be it. The town intrigues can wait until next session.

It largely depends. Typically, I’m going to know what it is the players want. And it’s not likely to be dickering with guards… likely they’re interested in whatever’s beyond the guards.

So I’m not going to draw that out and treat it as if it’s as meaningful as other scenes or situations. I’m going to give them the info they need to decide how to handle the obstacle the guards present, and then see what they do about it.

I don’t want to run or play in a game where “hey this is kinda dull and beside the point, but so be it”. No thank you.

All you've found out there is that the guard can't be bribed by you right at this moment.

You've learned nothing about the guard in general, including whether someone else in your party can succeed where you have failed.

I think you missed the point. I was explaining how the result of the dice roll can be the thing that determines if the guard can be bribed or not. So if I rolled well enough, the guard is open to being bribed. If I rolled poorly, he is not open to a bribe.

The die roll can be what determines this rather than the GM doing so before play.

Which would seem to be the point of having an un-bribe-able guard.

Right, but then you’re making a decision as a GM that shuts down an entire method of dealing with the guard. Which is fine… but that impacts what’s available to the players and that’s something that should be considered when the decision is made.

Those are different things than outright bribing the guard. If you manage to fail on both those attempts as well then the pattern suggests there's something about you this guard really doesn't like and you might be better off just trying a different gate. :)

Again, you’re missing the point. If a critical success or compelling freeform RP both result in a failure, then what we’re talking about is the GM not allowing any chance for success.

Sometimes absolutes do occur, even in real life. Here in this example, for all you-as-PC know the guard might be quite open to bribes most of the time, but not right now 'cause his hard-ass martinet of a sergeant-at-arms is watching his every move from the guardhouse.

But that’s not really the reason. The reason is because the GM decided ahead of time that nothing would work. Which may be fine based on preference and expectations. But we’ve largely been talking about GM decisions and how they impact player agency or player-directed play.

Deciding this kind of stuff ahead of time seems to be more about GM directed play than anything else. This is what the GM has decoded, so this is what will be.

have to give D&D 2024 huge props for calling out that you can do 3rd person/glossed over conversations as a scene tool & as an accessibility framework right in the core examples of play in the PHB. That's advancing the art in the biggest game in the western play space.

I agree it’s nice to hear that. I switch freely between first and third person when I play… pretty much have always done so. And it’s especially useful to narrate certain scenes quickly.
 

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OK, so a god like Lloth, Gruumsh, Bane, Loviatar (the D&D version, not the real version), Erythnul, Hextor--are they OK? They're all extremely evil, predatory, monstrous gods in D&Dlandia.
I will repeat what I told mamba: I refuse to be nickel-and-dimed to death here.

"Evil" gods are not relevant to the kind of discussion at hand, so I don't see why I should answer this question in this context. It's very clear that the context was "local priest we need to convince to help us", not "Thulsa Doom in his lair", which is what a priest of those sorts of deities would be like. (Not really sure Hextor fits; yes he's evil, but he's LE, even if the more brutal type thereof. Punishing people for things they outrightly didn't do and couldn't control is pretty Chaotic Evil IMO. But, again, alignment is a tarpit, let's not jump into it.)

But again, this is a thing that could be demonstrably true in a D&D world. Not just a matter of someone's belief but an actual fact. You can't call this the result of "a dupe" if the actual god manifested in the world and made this proclamation.
No world I would consider realistic would feature a possibly-persuadable priest the PCs would meaningfully interact with as a person, rather than as an enemy to be fought or a threat to be avoided.

Sure, it's incredibly doubtful that anyone would ever have a god like this in their setting, unless they were doing a satire or using it as a god-corpse floating in the Astral and used as an object lesson given to baby godlings as to what happens to deities who get too demanding in a place where mortals have access to planar travel and godslayer weapons.
...again, you make my points for me. "It is incredibly doubtful that anyone would ever have a god like this in their setting, unles they were doing a satire" etc. is quite literally why I would see this as evidence of railroading. Because I have, on the one hand, the incredibly dubious position that someone actually did this in a non-parody game/context...or the position that them doing it was a form of railroading, nixing reasonable player attempts at action with unreasonable setting-element reveals. Given the former is, in your own word, "incredibly doubtful", the simpler explanation of equivalent explanatory power is (an instance of) railroading. Perhaps it is only a momentary thing; perhaps it is a one-off or an accident or the GM covering her butt with a ham-fisted kludge because she didn't foresee this and allowing it through would ruin extensive prep work etc. etc. etc.; none of that is relevant to whether I would consider this evidence of railroading occurring. And if I've seen it once, why wouldn't I start looking for it elsewhere, even if just to check whether it was a fluke?

Ah, would... would you like to chat privately, off this forum about this?
No, I would not. As someone who has to deal with people of my own religion being hateful, it's not really a thing I want to mix into my leisure time. But I appreciate that you asked.
 

I don’t know if you saw my posts but I said this is just one type of sandbox. I was defending this style as also having agency. But I said to elsewhere I think other approaches, including the ones you describe, can also be sandboxes. My point is what you are doing is in keeping with sandbox and what Rob is doing is sandbox. And both promote agency in their own ways
Sorry, was responding as I was reading as different things caught my eye.

It was specifically the point of, "a sandbox is going to have concrete details", which is a normative statement that is pretty clearly stating what a sandbox is. I was reacting to that, specifically because this point makes it sound like all sandboxes are going to have concrete details. A point that has been repeated rather a lot in this thread as a means to narrowly define sandboxes to exclude anything that isn't a traditional sandbox.

I do realize you've been pretty open in this thread about what consists of a sandbox.
 

I think we all know that when it comes to gaming, there's realistic and there's realistic.
No. We do not all know this. I definitely don't.

That's why I don't use the word myself anymore. I was using it here because that was the standard others brought. The word I use is "groundedness". Because an inherently fantastical situation can still be well-grounded. And, conversely, an entirely "realistic" world can be very poorly-grounded; consider many of the ridiculous contrivances which occur in, say, James Bond films or games, like in the game Nightfire where your escape pod from the orbital station happens to land you exactly where you parked your amphibious self-driving Aston Martin. Bond's adventures occur in something that passes for "the real world", and yet they're very rarely grounded in the slightest.)

I've been watching clips from Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, and despite being an openly and acutely fantastical world (almost all of the characters in it are either fairly powerful mages, fairly powerful demons, or "warriors" who have preternatural durability), it is among the most grounded stories I've seen from anime in a long time.

Almost nothing in a typical fantasy setting is actually realistic in any way, shape, or form, but they usually have enough verisimilitude that only an actual medieval scholar would be upset at them. As I said, we can allow for dragons, but we also require there to be enough things around for them to eat.
Do we? Because in my experience most GMs don't even do that much. They'll have dozens of the things in an area too small to feed even one of them. Which just loops right back around to your non-italicized "realistic" often being nothing of the sort, and instead being "whatever the GM's version of 'common sense' answers says", which often bears almost no resemblance to anything realistic or predictable or even sensical.

"Invisible rulebooks", to use the in-vogue phrase, only work when everyone at the table has the same invisible book. I find that this never happens in practice.

Fair enough; that person has apparently blocked me so I had no idea to whom you were responding.

I would, however, say that a never-ending stream of gelatinous cubes feels more like a plot hook to me than a dead end.
Perhaps so; perhaps not. The person who asked (mamba) wanted to know if the standards applied elsewhere would also apply to a dead end in a dungeon environment, since (as they rightly noted) dead ends are a thing there. It's a bit harder to come up with an utterly ridiculous dead end than an utterly ridiculous belief (since beliefs don't need to have any physical component, whereas dead ends do)

That said, I should think a "plot hook" would already be a problem in something claiming to be a "sandbox".
 

I believe you if you say that's how you would respond to that kind of campaign. But for sandbox enthusiasts, the exploration is part of the fun.
But... what's the point? And, I don't mean this antagonistically. It's an honest question.

Why would the players care if the Dungeon of Nasty Badness is in Hex 1204 or Hex 1207? The point is to get to the Dungeon of Nasty Badness.

Or, to put it another way. I'm running Out of the Abyss right now. The first half of OoTA is pretty sandboxy. You have a lot of options of what you can do and it's pretty wide open. But, since the goal of the characters is to get home, pretty much anything the players are going to choose is, in some way, related to getting home. Mapping out the Darklake, while a perfectly sandbox thing to do, in no way furthers that goal and I would never expect the players to do so.

They could, I suppose. But, at that point, I'd kinda have to turn to the players and ask them what they are trying to achieve? Punting through an massive underground lake? Why?

They are traveling the Darklake because that's the route to a potential settlement where they can get supplies, allies and potentially a way out of the Underdark. Wandering around on the lake isn't the goal, it's the means to that goal.

I guess I just don't really understand the point of playing just to ... play? Wandering around looking for an adventure? I just can't imagine playing like this. If people are having fun, fantastic, I guess?

And, considering the rather sternly worded response I just got about "onetruewayism", how is this post not onetruwayism? I'm apparently not a "sandbox enthusiast" because I don't want to play a sandbox the way you do? That the only way to be a "sandbox enthusiast" is to play this one particular way? How is this not staking out a specific playstyle for how the way a sandbox is truly played?
 

just because one person does it that way does not mean everyone has to. You did not do any of this and called your game a sandbox, that you did not use D&D is immaterial to this
Yes, because only one person has said about how much work they do to get their sandbox off the ground. No one else has ever talked about how the DM/GM is the sole source of information about the setting. 🤷

That I didn't have to do any of this was 100% because I didn't use D&D as the system. The system itself generated all the answers to the questions that came up during play. Well, to be fair, the system in conjunction with the players at the table. I absolutely could not have done what I did using the D&D system. It simply wouldn't work.
 

/snip

The short answer: Things don't exist in a vacuum; they cause ripples. Meaning, as the players travel, they will hear things. And some of them will be of interest, and they will elect to focus on what they just discovered.
However, the core issue I've repeatedly raised remains: your persistent mischaracterization of sandbox techniques as either insufficient for ensuring player agency or inherently consistent with railroading.
How is this a mischaracterization. You have repeatedly stated that virtually all information comes from the DM. The players cannot know anything without it being created and passed to them from the DM. The only way to "hear things" is for the DM to tell the players. And everything they hear is 100% generated by the DM.

At that point, railroading becomes very easy. When I control all the information AND I control when and how you learn any information, getting a group onto rails is simple. Not that it has to be mind you. It doesn't have to end in railroading at all. But, this idea that the way you've set up your sandbox somehow makes it difficult to railroad isn't true.

If one person at the table controls all information and all sources of information, then that person can very, very easily railroad the group.
Robersconley said:
Player agency, in my sandbox campaigns, arises explicitly because players interact authentically and freely with a setting that consistently responds to their choices. Players roleplay with NPCs, set and pursue objectives, and face outcomes naturally emerging from their decisions.

But all of those responses are 100% sourced from the DM. There is no impartiality, other than whatever the DM considers to be impartial. Those "naturally emerging outcomes" are completely coming from the DM. They aren't natural at all. They are 100% dependent on the DM to create them. That's neither natural nor impartial.

True, the DM can strive to be impartial. Absolutely. But, there's no check on that. There's no way to know that the DM is being impartial or not. We can hope that the DM is being impartial. And, I suppose, so long as the players are happy, questions of impartiality are largely moot. But, at no point is this process impartial or natural.
 

Broadly yes, but the specifics will have a lot of variance because good GMs can run many types of games and what good GMing is will differ between them
Sure, I mean that doesn't seem controversial. Good GMing for Burning Wheel doesn't follow the same principles and heuristics as good GMing for Apoclaypse World, for example. And good GMing for 4e D&D, while it can learn from both games, is its own thing again.
 

The moment a resolution mechanic exists, especially one that models human decision-making, conflict, or consequence, it is standing in for something. It is a representational model. And like any model, it is a simplification and doesn't capture the full extent of what it represents.
This claim is not true. The Burning Wheel resolution system is not a model of anything, nor a simulation of anything.

In this respect it resembles (say) making a throw in Classic Traveller, or tracking hit points in most versions of D&D; and differs from (say) the system for skill improvement in RuneQuest, or the skill rules and combat manoeuvre rules in 3E D&D.

To be more specific, here is the general model for resolution in Burning Wheel (there are some instances, especially extended conflict resolution, which don't fully conform to, and/or elaborate on, this general model; I use the word "attribute" to cover the full range of skills, abilities etc that can be used to resolve a declared action):

*The player says what their PC is doing. That requires describing the task their PC is attempting, and also the intent with which the task is being performed. This step can involve some back and forth with the GM, to get clear on how the player's conception of their PC's action fits into the situation that the GM is describing to the player.

*The GM states what attribute*s) the player has to test on. This follows from the task being attempted. The player is free to make suggestions here, and there can be back-and-forth. In practice, this step and the preceding step may often be undertaken together, as establishing the relevant attribute(s) and properly specifying the task are closely related.

*The GM states the obstacle. This is determined by consulting the (many) obstacle descriptors, both general ones and ones found under each attribute's explanation in the rules. This may require extrapolation from the given descriptors to cover the current fictional situation. It is important to note that, at this point, the player is committed. In the fiction, the PC is beginning their attempt.

*If it is not already clear because implicit in the fiction, the GM also tells the player what will happen if the test fails (see further below).

*The player builds their dice pool. I won't go through this whole process, but at this stage the player may be able to bring non-attribute features of their PC to bear so as to increase their pool (all relevant attributes have already been factored in with the specification of the task).

*The player rolls the dice and counts their success (the default is 4+). This is compared to the obstacle. If the successes meet or beat the obstacle, the PC succeeds at their task and realises their intent. Otherwise the intent is not realised, and the GM narrates what occurs (it is the GM's decision, as part of this process of establishing consequences of failure, whether the task succeeds or fails; the only mandated component of the consequence is failure of the intent).​

There is no model here. Attributes aren't models; they're descriptors with numerical ratings. Obstacles aren't models; they're numerical ratings, which are intended to convey in mechanical terms the degree of challenge/difficulty/threat/etc that the PC is confronting in the fiction. So, for instance, Ob 4 is a higher difficulty than Ob 2, and this corresponds to a greater difficulty in the fiction. But the probability of a given player being able to succeed vs Ob 2, or Ob 4, by testing on a particular attribute - while important for the play experience - is not representative of anything in the fiction.

The rolling of the dice itself doesn't model or simulate anything. It is an event in the "metagame", which determines what happens next. And the consequences of success or failure aren't arrived at by a modelling process - they are candidate fictions, and the function of the dice roll is to determine which candidate fiction becomes "actual" in the sense of being a component of the shared fiction.

This particular branch of the discussion came up because @mamba posted that "No set of rules will prescribe every outcome to every action under every condition", and I replied by posting that the Burning Wheel rules show how "a resolution system can be designed so as to dissolve the concern that underlies your post". And I've just shown how the BW rules dissolve that concern: because they do not operate by prescribing outcomes. They operate by setting out a process which can be followed to generate (i) an obstacle, (ii) a dice pool, and (ii) an outcome/result/consequence, for (iv) any intent and task that a player might declare for their PC, that is consistent with the basic setting and genre conceits of the game.

no I haven’t, will take a look, but I doubt it can do what I described, namely provide one explicit answer as to what the outcome is for any given action in any given situation where all the GM has to do is look it up.
It doesn't. As I posted, it dissolves your concern, by showing that there is an alternative way of resolving actions to the one that your question presupposes (that is, an alternative to actually specifying every possible fictional outcome).

Was your ‘how many enemy wizards are after the party’ a BW scenario?
No. It was Rolemaster. That's the whole point - RM has nothing useful to say about handling this; BW does.

Here is the post in question:
I posted an example oF what I want to avoid in the current "GM mistakes" thread: when GMing Rolemaster, the PCs had a powerful faction acting against them. I, as GM, had to decide how much effort the faction devoted to thwarting the PCs, and how seriously the resources dedicated to that effort were deployed. The rules of the game gave me measures for things like how many and how potent spells can a NPC cast, but nothing more. So all the rest was simply up to me to decide, with the upshot of my decision being the full gamut from the PCs experience little threat to the PCs are utterly hosed.

RM has no inherent devices for handling or mitigating this, because it's mechanics are basically more elaborate and simulationist versions of classic D&D mechanics (with a few exceptions - eg it has rudimentary but still workable social mechanics); but it assumes a completely different framing context from the very artificial environment of the classic D&D dungeon (which constrains and channels possible threats so the PCs don't get automatically hosed by the forces arrayed against them).

This experience is one reason why I prefer systems that - like classic D&D - provide a framework for the introduction and prosecution of adversity, but - unlike classic D&D - have a framework that will work in the more verisimilitudinous/naturalistic contexts that I prefer.

To give a concrete illustration of what I mean: in the most recent session of my Torchbearer 2e game, two PCs escaped from a prison in Wintershiven (the capital of the Theocracy of the Pale), abetted by a third PC. So there are now agents of the Pale who are hostile to them. But I don't, as GM, need to make any decisions in advance about who those agents are, how effective they are, etc - the sorts of decisions that I had to make in the RM game. Rather, the resolution system tells me (through various of its devices, like the rules for failed tests, the rules for events, etc) when I need to introduce "unanticipated" adversity, and there are also clear frameworks for establishing its difficulty, and there are clear frameworks for resolving conflicts (including clear rules for when PC death is on the line).

There is all the verisimilitude and vibrancy of my old RM game - I'm even using my same beloved 1980 Greyhawk Folio maps (though I think I actually got my copy in 1983 or perhaps early '84). But the game system improves the playability, by establishing clear procedures for the presentation and unfolding of PC-threatening adversity.
 
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