Spoilers Doctor Who s15 (or 2) [[spoilers!]]

[Staffan]

What, UNIT can't block a phone signal from within their own headquarters? And assuming they wanted to send a message rather than just stop his, this is the message they chose to send? "Yes, monsters are real, and we'll keep you safe from them - so long as you don't disagree with us. If you try to make things difficult for us, we'll set those monsters loose to eat you alive."

"Monsters are real, this guy knew that all along, and he was playing you for fools for his own fame and fortune."

 

[Necropolitan]

If we're arguing about the morality of the government in the Whoverse, I think it's pretty obvious it's pretty messed up. Just look at Torchwood. Or more specifically, Children of Earth, where the government was complicit in handing over children to the 456.

The issue is Kate doing so is presented as a good thing.

Meanwhile Torchwood destroying the 456 was presented as a good thing, with the only issue being the horrific way they had to do it in.

Umm... murdering retreating enemies is typically seen as pretty morally repugnant. They were beaten, they were never coming back.

There's no actual evidence of that beyond The Doctor's word, and he had been repeatedly shown to be wrong. Including during that very scenario in fact! Him pushing for diplomacy actually got more people killed because the Sycorax murdered the diplomats!

The Sycorax were retreating with the equivalent of a fist-shake and "I'll get you next time!" Their leader responded to losing a duel by trying to backstab The Doctor, you really think the rest of them would be any better? If they didn't want to get their ship shot down they shouldn't have invaded Earth and tried to enslave everyone in the first place.

Was it bad when UNIT sneak-attacked the Sontarans in The Poison Sky after they tried gassing the planet?

He had a gun. He wasn't defenseless. And, let's not forget that this was a sadistic murderer (he tried very hard to kill someone to get into UNIT HQ) sociopath who was incredibly dangerous. If you're fine with murdering defenseless retreating enemies, I'm not really sure you have much of a platform to complain about feeding a murderer to an alien.

The Sycorax were not "defenseless," I don't know why you're making that false claim. They still had all their weapons, they just didn't expect Torchwood to have a weapon capable of destroying their ship.

Conrad on the other hand HAD been rendered defenseless. He had no further way of harming anyone and UNIT could have just moved in and arrested him.

Yes, there was. Conrad was broadcasting to his fans, and showing them that yes, these things are real, and your so-called brave idol is a coward when push comes to shove. The point wasn't to kill or hurt him, the point was to destroy him.

This is like animal control unleashing a rabid dog on someone, the police doing the same with a serial killer, or a government health agency infecting someone with a deadly disease. A government official abusing their power this way is really bad.

What, UNIT can't block a phone signal from within their own headquarters? And assuming they wanted to send a message rather than just stop his, this is the message they chose to send? "Yes, monsters are real, and we'll keep you safe from them - so long as you don't disagree with us. If you try to make things difficult for us, we'll set those monsters loose to eat you alive."

UNIT is an unaccountable government agency that actively covers up threats to the public and has now moved to threatening the public if they dare to ask for accountability.

In previous Doctor Who series this would be presented as a bad thing.

"Monsters are real, this guy knew that all along, and he was playing you for fools for his own fame and fortune."

What part of that message required attempted murder?

 

[Ryujin]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Conrad's "weapon" was millions of True Believer followers. Kate de-clawed him.

 

[Necropolitan]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Conrad's "weapon" was millions of True Believer followers. Kate de-clawed him.

Kate had way more ways of doing that than abusing her power to try to murder him.

If someone was fear-mongering about the NHS would it be fine if they infected them with Ebola and refused to treat them until they recanted?

 

[Ryujin]

Kate had way more ways of doing that than abusing her power to try to murder him.

If someone was fear-mongering about the NHS would it be fine if they infected them with Ebola and refused to treat them until they recanted?

No, but it would be morally grey to leave them in a containment lab with the sample that they just shattered on the floor, rather than sending people in to get them out.

 

[Necropolitan]

No, but it would be morally grey to leave them in a containment lab with the sample that they just shattered on the floor, rather than sending people in to get them out.

That's not what happened at all.

Kate released the alien that had already been contained specifically to attack Conrad.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Kate had way more ways of doing that than abusing her power to try to murder him.

If someone was fear-mongering about the NHS would it be fine if they infected them with Ebola and refused to treat them until they recanted?

Yes.

 

[MarkB]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Conrad's "weapon" was millions of True Believer followers. Kate de-clawed him.

Right, because confessions extracted under threat of death are always sincere. And an organisation accused of faking alien monsters showing a 'real' one on a streamed video couldn't possibly be fake footage itself.

 

[MarkB]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is a possible connection to classic Who in this episode. Conrad's croneys wear a <Think Tank> logo, that presumably being the name they're operating under, and in the Fourth Doctor debut episode "Robot", the organisation that was developing the K1 robot was colloquially known as Think Tank. Obviously the term is pretty commonplace in popular culture these days, but it may be a connection.

 

[James Gasik]

Yeah, I was always dubious about 10 lambasting Harriet over the whole "kill bad guys" thing- the Doctor has done worse, before and since, to his enemies. Seven arranging for Skaro's destruction via the Hand of Omega? Ten himself imprisoning the Family of Blood forever? Or attempting to rewrite history, declaring himself the Time Lord Triumphant because, well, nobody could stop him?

I think the Doctor is a great character, but part of that is due to his/her/its flaws- left to their own devices, they could easily become worse than The Master and they know it. They'll monologue endlessly about not disrupting the timeline in one episode, and in another, feel perfectly happy upending it (remember how Harriet Jones was supposed to serve three consecutive terms as Prime Minister?) because he was annoyed with how she handled the incident.

I could go on, but the record speaks for itself. We know the Doctor is his greatest enemy (remember the Valeyard?), and we've seen him fight against his tendency to meddle, then dive right back into it, always trying to channel his darker impulses into doing capital-g Good...and while his success rate is probably above 50%, he has some epic failures under his belt, and will continue to do so.

And in my opinion, this is what makes him interesting to watch! It's too easy for us to say "well, he should have acted this way or that"- he's so old nobody (not even himself) is sure about his age, and he's suffering from a host of psychological issues- PTSD, DID, Manic-Depression, OCD, occasional Megalomania- but even at his lowest points, he somehow (usually with some verbal rear-kicking from a Companion) picks himself back up and keeps on trying.

He's simultaneously one of the most human, yet alien characters in fiction. Sometimes hero, sometimes god, most times cosmic hobo. I've been watching the series since I was a young tyke staying up late to watch him on the local PBS station (WTTW Chicago, represent!), and never once have I felt like anyone did a bad job portraying the character or writing for him (though admittedly, some do a better job than others).

I mean, people adore 10 because of David Tennant's natural charisma, but most people forget how many of his stories were absolute rubbish, lol. He was barely even in fan-favorite "Blink". And then you got Kung fu werewolf monks in Victorian England? Or "Love and Monsters"? (Shudder)

The Doctor IS. Nit-pickers and nay-sayers can go to E-Space for all I care.