D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

That is an Old School view, and I respect it, but other schools of thought exist and are just as valid. It's all a wondrous tapestry of opinions and methods, right?
Not really, when that "school of thought" actively attacks any and all possibilities of developing game design, using game design to solve real problems, or doing anything whatever to develop the game further. It instead says "rules don't matter, do whatever you like, stop trying to make rules, rules suck and will always and only make things worse, never ever ever ever ever add rules no matter what".

Again, I've seen this over and over, on this forum and elsewhere. OSR people are constantly dragging literally every single discussion of rules design into "well you don't NEED rules for anything, so rules are stupid and pointless, never add new ones for any reason, doesn't matter what good they might do." You have to defend the very idea that a rule could ever, under any circumstances, be more productive than not having a rule for something.

If the OSR had their way, nobody would ever be allowed to play anything but FKR.
 

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There is definitely room for reasonable discussions on calls. But if I was in a group that broke down and couldn't move on, I would stop playing with them. he ability to move on is something I consider pretty important. When I was younger I remember having to play with people who would hold up a game over a dispute and I realized at a certain point, you just need to move on.
Okay. That answers the question of "what happens if you hit a totally, completely irreconcilable problem".

It doesn't answer the question "what happens if the player doesn't 'instantly agree'?" Because that was the thing said. That players would "instantly" agree and everyone would move on. I consider that a ridiculously pie-in-the-sky perspective. There are going to be not just a few things but plenty of things where players won't "instantly agree and...move on". Indeed, framing it in those terms, of instant agreement, is precisely my problem here, and why I use terms like "capitulate" or "surrender" or "submission" or the like--the vast majority of things where I agree "instantly" with someone I had previously disagreed with enough to raise the issue, I'm definitely not going to agree "instantly", and the only way I could reach "instant" agreement is by just suppressing any and all advocacy for my own interests, aka, total capitulation.

There remains a (rather vast!) gap between "instantly agree" and "totally, completely irreconcilable problem". Again, one side of this is presenting a hard binary of either problems that are instantaneously solved with zero issues ever, OR the first problem that comes along is infinitely irreconcilable and thus the group shatters on contact with it. Surely, surely there are more states between those two points! Surely we do not live in a world where everything is THAT extreme! After all, folks have been telling me I've been making others' positions too extreme, they have to have meant that, right?

...right?
 

Not really, when that "school of thought" actively attacks any and all possibilities of developing game design, using game design to solve real problems, or doing anything whatever to develop the game further. It instead says "rules don't matter, do whatever you like, stop trying to make rules, rules suck and will always and only make things worse, never ever ever ever ever add rules no matter what".

Again, I've seen this over and over, on this forum and elsewhere. OSR people are constantly dragging literally every single discussion of rules design into "well you don't NEED rules for anything, so rules are stupid and pointless, never add new ones for any reason, doesn't matter what good they might do." You have to defend the very idea that a rule could ever, under any circumstances, be more productive than not having a rule for something.

If the OSR had their way, nobody would ever be allowed to play anything but FKR.

I think the OSR scene contains multitudes these days, ranging from “follow procedures but rely on player skill instead of the character sheet as much as possible” through to stuff like Errant.

But yeah, there’s definitely an idea you don’t look to your sheet for solutions!
 

Not really, when that "school of thought" actively attacks any and all possibilities of developing game design, using game design to solve real problems, or doing anything whatever to develop the game further. It instead says "rules don't matter, do whatever you like, stop trying to make rules, rules suck and will always and only make things worse, never ever ever ever ever add rules no matter what".

Again, I've seen this over and over, on this forum and elsewhere. OSR people are constantly dragging literally every single discussion of rules design into "well you don't NEED rules for anything, so rules are stupid and pointless, never add new ones for any reason, doesn't matter what good they might do." You have to defend the very idea that a rule could ever, under any circumstances, be more productive than not having a rule for something.

No one is telling you to stop making rules. Old School is one design and play philosophy among many.


If the OSR had their way, nobody would ever be allowed to play anything but FKR.

This is just not true. You would also be able to play White Box, maybe even OSRIC if you are nice
 

TBH, if things have got to the point of "expect[ing] accountability" and "ask[ing] for redress" the situation is 99% likely unsalvageable, because - in my view anyway - if terms like that are being invoked things have already escalated to the point of no return.
....

Seriously?

Any attempt, anything at all, to try to fix a situation so that both sides feel it's been addressed, means it's unsalvagable?

And I'm supposed to be the one demanding perfection here???
 

No one is telling you to stop making rules. Old School is one design and play philosophy among many.
I have seen that exact sentiment dozens if not hundreds of times on this very forum. It's worse elsewhere, but not a lot worse.

This is just not true. You would also be able to play White Box, maybe even OSRIC if you are nice
Oh, Lord have mercy, whatever shall I do with such generosity.
 

I think the OSR scene contains multitudes these days, ranging from “follow procedures but rely on player skill instead of the character sheet as much as possible” through to stuff like Errant.

But yeah, there’s definitely an idea you don’t look to your sheet for solutions!
I mean, every collection of people greater than two "contains multitudes" in most instances. I'm just calling out the overall pattern I see.

"Rulings not rules" has been taken as gospel truth. Rules are viewed as nasty bad things. Never add them ever. Check the ones you have to see how many you can just axe completely. Any you can't, gut them until they barely function, and then ignore them.

The very idea that following the rules as they're actually written could even potentially lead to better results than constantly winging it and (re(re(re(re))))inventing the wheel every single time, is rejected out of hand unless and until you give it a spirited defense, and even then, the most you'll get is a begrudging "well I guess on EXCEEDINGLY RARE occasions it MIGHT be POSSIBLE that following written rules could, maybe, be just a little useful". And then the whole process starts again in the next thread...or, more commonly, with the next three posters who join a hundred posts later and now you have to completely re-litigate the entire foundation, lather, rinse, repeat 20 times until the thread gets locked for never going anywhere.

I genuinely do not consider this an exaggeration. I genuinely do not consider this to be misrepresenting the stances I see on this forum damn near all the time.
 

I mean, every collection of people greater than two "contains multitudes" in most instances. I'm just calling out the overall pattern I see.

"Rulings not rules" has been taken as gospel truth. Rules are viewed as nasty bad things. Never add them ever. Check the ones you have to see how many you can just axe completely. Any you can't, gut them until they barely function, and then ignore them.

The very idea that following the rules as they're actually written could even potentially lead to better results than constantly winging it and (re(re(re(re))))inventing the wheel every single time, is rejected out of hand unless and until you give it a spirited defense, and even then, the most you'll get is a begrudging "well I guess on EXCEEDINGLY RARE occasions it MIGHT be POSSIBLE that following written rules could, maybe, be just a little useful". And then the whole process starts again in the next thread...or, more commonly, with the next three posters who join a hundred posts later and now you have to completely re-litigate the entire foundation, lather, rinse, repeat 20 times until the thread gets locked for never going anywhere.

I genuinely do not consider this an exaggeration. I genuinely do not consider this to be misrepresenting the stances I see on this forum damn near all the time.

It is just one way of doing things. A lot of people who like the rulings over rules approach (which isn't a jettisoning of all rules) also like games that have robust systems. I play both and I find they serve very different experiences.
 


Nope! But remember folks: when other people invent strawmen of my arguments, that's perfectly fine. When other people put words in my mouth, that's fine. When other people ascribe extreme positions to me, that's fine.

It's only when I do it to the fans of DM-above-all styles that it's a problem.
Yes. It's not a Strawman. Wanting Shield to always succeed against a saving throw(Plus to hit vs. AC) in order not to lose a slot is equivalent to wanting charm person to always succeed against a saving throw(Save bonus vs. DC) in order not to lose a slot.

You didn't say it in direct words, but that's what your words mean. To hit vs. AC is just a saving throw done differently.
 

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