Spoilers Doctor Who s15 (or 2) [[spoilers!]]

[MarkB]

RE: No Gods in Doctor Who.

Now granted, sure, most of the time, the Doctor doesn't face Gods. And what constitutes a God is up for some debate. But sufficiently advanced alien, etc. etc..

Xoanon thought it was a God, as did Rassilon and the Dalek Emperor. Kronos the Chronovore might as well be a God, as well as The Bad Wolf, possibly the Guardians of Time. The Gods of Ragnarok call themselves God, and so did Sutekh. I don't recall, but I'm pretty sure Fenric was considered a God as well (or at least claimed to be one).

The Daemons were worshiped as Gods or Demons, ditto for Light (from Ghost Light) and Magnus Greel, and even the Time Lords themselves (by the Minyans, for example). Ditto the Optera, Aggedor, Ti, Akhaten, and Kroll. The Nimons pretended to be Gods. Ten fought The Devil (The Satan Pit). Omega, holding himself together out of sheer will could be considered a God of sorts.

The Doctor himself was seen as a household God in The Fires of Pompeii and the Face of Boe called him "the lonely god". K9 Mark I was worshiped by the Anubians.

And who knows what else I may have missed.

This is not exactly a new thing to the franchise.

One problem is that the show is inconsistent in its definitions. Like, when they talk in this episode about gods who are fed by stories and are essential to humanity such that killing them would inflict terrible harm on the world, I don't think these are the same beings as the gods from outside the universe who have been invading the show for the past couple of seasons starting with the Toymaker. But it isn't made clear, and those are the only gods the show has directly acknowledged over the past few years.

And I really dislike that element to this week's episode. I thought the general concept of stories having power, which can be harnessed to inspire future generations or to power a metaphysical engine, was a really neat one and for the most part was very well executed. But when you tie that into those stories either powering or begetting actual gods, and those gods being essential to humanity, that takes the story in a theological direction that I don't appreciate.

 

[Hussar]

Gods vs Beings from Beyond (a la Toymaker).

The episode I thought made it perfectly clear that they were talking about Human gods. After all, they name dropped a bunch of them. These are not the same as the Toymaker beings anymore than Cthulhu is the same as Thor.

The Doctor has met several beings that certainly qualify as gods that had nothing to do with whatever the Toymaker and his "children" are. The reason we're traveling in a honking big mechanical spider is because the story writer claimed to be Anansi. What else would Anansi travel in than a giant mechanical spider in a web of knowledge?

Sure, he wasn't the actual Anansi, but, the concept still holds.

And why wouldn't 15 remember the Valyard Doctor? He might not remember everything, but, the Valyard Doctor is in his past. It might be locked away, but, that doesn't mean it can't pop up from time to time. I thought it was a pretty cool scene to be honest.

I dunno. People seem a lot more critical than I am. I watched it, I enjoyed it, and it was pretty cool. That's about all I ever ask from anything I watch on TV.

 

[Tonguez]

I do like when they dip into different cultural traditions when crafting storys for the show and having an African focus given the origins of the new Doctor was nice (even if it was a bit of a kitchen sink Africa).

the term gods has been used throughout the history of Doctor Who and never consistently, it fit the story so have no issue with its use in this episode. Of course I tend to take each episode on its own merits rather than trying to hold to a consistent plot arc - lack of consistency is a feature of Doctor Who not a bug

 

[Morrus]

the term gods has been used throughout the history of Doctor Who and never consistently, it fit the story so have no issue with its use in this episode.

I agree, although since gods are a major part of the current overhead story arc, we're now using them term for two different things at the same time.

 

[Necropolitan]

RE: No Gods in Doctor Who.

Now granted, sure, most of the time, the Doctor doesn't face Gods. And what constitutes a God is up for some debate. But sufficiently advanced alien, etc. etc..

Xoanon thought it was a God, as did Rassilon and the Dalek Emperor. Kronos the Chronovore might as well be a God, as well as The Bad Wolf, possibly the Guardians of Time. The Gods of Ragnarok call themselves God, and so did Sutekh. I don't recall, but I'm pretty sure Fenric was considered a God as well (or at least claimed to be one).

The Daemons were worshiped as Gods or Demons, ditto for Light (from Ghost Light) and Magnus Greel, and even the Time Lords themselves (by the Minyans, for example). Ditto the Optera, Aggedor, Ti, Akhaten, and Kroll. The Nimons pretended to be Gods. Ten fought The Devil (The Satan Pit). Omega, holding himself together out of sheer will could be considered a God of sorts.

The Doctor himself was seen as a household God in The Fires of Pompeii and the Face of Boe called him "the lonely god". K9 Mark I was worshiped by the Anubians.

And who knows what else I may have missed.

This is not exactly a new thing to the franchise.

"Being seen as/claiming to be a god" and "Being a god" are very different things.

The former is normal for the franchise. The latter very much is not.

This episode made it so all of humanity's gods are not only real and magical but the result of one guy.

It's an egregious retcon that came out of nowhere.

The episode I thought made it perfectly clear that they were talking about Human gods. After all, they name dropped a bunch of them. These are not the same as the Toymaker beings anymore than Cthulhu is the same as Thor.

In this case it's like if vampires from the Stephanie Meyers Twilight novels were added to an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the episode acted like that was normal.

the term gods has been used throughout the history of Doctor Who and never consistently

It has been consistent that the beings in questions were not actually divine magical beings aside from a single episode widely regarded as not fitting with the rest of the series.

Doctor Who HAS had consistency. Minor details get changed, plot points come out of nowhere, but at the very least there's been enough that stays the same that viewers can hold onto.

This series is like if the Sontarans were suddenly depicted as beach balls with googly eyes but were still obsessive warmongers, then two episodes later they look the way they usually do but now they're obsessed with turnip farming and the episode and characters act like they've always been that way both times.


The reboot was supposed to draw in younger viewers so a new generation would become fans of Doctor Who. Which is a smart move, the franchise needs that to keep going. But the episodes have repeatedly relied on things only fans who have been watching for a long time would know (and a lot of the changes seem to be specifically to mock them) and are presented in a way children are unlikely to enjoy/be interested in.

 

[nevin]

RE: No Gods in Doctor Who.

Now granted, sure, most of the time, the Doctor doesn't face Gods. And what constitutes a God is up for some debate. But sufficiently advanced alien, etc. etc..

Xoanon thought it was a God, as did Rassilon and the Dalek Emperor. Kronos the Chronovore might as well be a God, as well as The Bad Wolf, possibly the Guardians of Time. The Gods of Ragnarok call themselves God, and so did Sutekh. I don't recall, but I'm pretty sure Fenric was considered a God as well (or at least claimed to be one).

The Daemons were worshiped as Gods or Demons, ditto for Light (from Ghost Light) and Magnus Greel, and even the Time Lords themselves (by the Minyans, for example). Ditto the Optera, Aggedor, Ti, Akhaten, and Kroll. The Nimons pretended to be Gods. Ten fought The Devil (The Satan Pit). Omega, holding himself together out of sheer will could be considered a God of sorts.

The Doctor himself was seen as a household God in The Fires of Pompeii and the Face of Boe called him "the lonely god". K9 Mark I was worshiped by the Anubians.

And who knows what else I may have missed.

This is not exactly a new thing to the franchise.

It's a new thing to the franchise that they are "Actually" gods and actively screwing with the universe. As you said the other's were pretending to be gods. we've transitioned from science fiction to science-fantasy. Some of it's been decent writing but it seems the whole franchise is slipping into a messy probably unhappy place for fans like Star Trek did when we had all those directors that were openly trying to make the star trek universe more like Star Wars. It's a shame every director in the modern world feels like they have to "change" the franchise and leave thier mark instead of just artfully continue the story.

 

[nevin]

"Being seen as/claiming to be a god" and "Being a god" are very different things.

The former is normal for the franchise. The latter very much is not.

This episode made it so all of humanity's gods are not only real and magical but the result of one guy.

It's an egregious retcon that came out of nowhere.


In this case it's like if vampires from the Stephanie Meyers Twilight novels were added to an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and the episode acted like that was normal.


It has been consistent that the beings in questions were not actually divine magical beings aside from a single episode widely regarded as not fitting with the rest of the series.

Doctor Who HAS had consistency. Minor details get changed, plot points come out of nowhere, but at the very least there's been enough that stays the same that viewers can hold onto.

This series is like if the Sontarans were suddenly depicted as beach balls with googly eyes but were still obsessive warmongers, then two episodes later they look the way they usually do but now they're obsessed with turnip farming and the episode and characters act like they've always been that way both times.


The reboot was supposed to draw in younger viewers so a new generation would become fans of Doctor Who. Which is a smart move, the franchise needs that to keep going. But the episodes have repeatedly relied on things only fans who have been watching for a long time would know (and a lot of the changes seem to be specifically to mock them) and are presented in a way children are unlikely to enjoy/be interested in.

I'd argue the consistency died with the "DNA Reboot" of the universe. But that should probably be a whole nother thread.

 

[trappedslider]

If you don't like the direction the show is going, why do you keep watching it?

 

[MarkB]

If you don't like the direction the show is going, why do you keep watching it?

If you've enjoyed a show for decades, do you drop it the moment you perceive a drop in quality?

 

[Necropolitan]

we've transitioned from science fiction to science-fantasy.

It's not even that what's happening is more fantastical than previous Doctor Who, it's that "MAGIC" is being used as an excuse for the fantastical elements not having any internal logic.

"MAGIC" is just a way to paper over the current show's lazy writing so they don't need to explain anything. Or to ensure there's plenty of stuff for fans to speculate over online.

For example the musical scene at the end of The Devil's Chords was originally going to have The Doctor explain that it was caused by music rushing back into the universe after The Maestro was defeated. It was cut.