Spoilers Doctor Who s15 (or 2) [[spoilers!]]

[Staffan]

Or that time Ten went ̶S̶u̶p̶e̶r̶ ̶S̶a̶i̶y̶a̶n̶ supercharged his psychic powers just from having Martha wander around telling stories about him for a year. Hmm...

That's actually called out in the episode. Just telling stories about him wouldn't have helped. It's the stories amplified by the network of telepathic satellites the Master had put into orbit, which were what enabled him to become PM in the first place.

 

[MarkB]

Does no one remember the Pandorica Opens/Big Bang when the Doctor uses the belief of all humanity to reset the entire Universe? If thats not cosmic magic what is?

You may be misremembering. The Doctor used the few stray particles trapped inside the Pandorica when it closed to reconstruct the universe, much like the Total Perspective Vortex in The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy extrapolated the entire universe from a small cupcake. The belief of all humanity was never involved.

Where belief / memory came in was restoring the Doctor himself in the aftermath, since he wasn't part of the universe that got reconstructed. And that wasn't all of humanity's memory, it was Amy Pond's memories alone.

 

[Tonguez]

You may be misremembering. The Doctor used the few stray particles trapped inside the Pandorica when it closed to reconstruct the universe, much like the Total Perspective Vortex in The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy extrapolated the entire universe from a small cupcake. The belief of all humanity was never involved.

Where belief / memory came in was restoring the Doctor himself in the aftermath, since he wasn't part of the universe that got reconstructed. And that wasn't all of humanity's memory, it was Amy Pond's memories alone.

yeah James Gasiks reference to Martha in Last of the Timelords showed me that I was conflating that with the Big Bang - my mistake indeed! - it doesnt change my point about the Doctor as virtual god powered by narrativium though

 

[James Gasik]

That's actually called out in the episode. Just telling stories about him wouldn't have helped. It's the stories amplified by the network of telepathic satellites the Master had put into orbit, which were what enabled him to become PM in the first place.

The Archangel Network, yeah. It's the same kind of applied phlebotinum as the Barber's "web of life and destiny" (I wonder how many people will get that reference, lol). Literally runs on narrativium!

Which the show always has. Being annoyed at the ultra-soft "science" of the show becoming pure fantasy strikes me as pretty odd. The Doctor is a magician who can wave a (literal) magic wand at problems. Deus ex machina being employed to save the day are as old as the show itself, and the Doctor's explanations are often utter nonsense. "Reversed the polarity of the neutron flow", and so on.

Even when the show establishes rules for it's main conceit, that of time travel, it has no problems ignoring them if it makes the story work. See "Blinovitch Limitation Effect" (which apparently stopped being a thing after the Time War, as per the events of "Father's Day"- just pretend Ace didn't hold her own infant mother that one time), the Doctor's supposed inability to alter fixed moments in time (which happen only when time travel isn't allowed to be the answer- thus Rory and Amy are trapped in the past, but "The Waters of Mars" could totally happen) etc., etc..

Or how people lambasted "bi-regeneration" but seem to have forgotten about Logopolis where Four's unregenerated future self was roaming about, only to merge with him to allow the regeneration into Five- how that's any less silly or nonsensical is unclear to me, but one is considered a classic moment for the series and the other is "ridiculous NuWho terrible writing", lol.

Utterly ridiculous stories are the essence of Doctor Who, I don't know how to express this any better. Whether it's Ten and Donna encountering kung fu werewolves in Elizabethan times or Three disguising himself as a cleaning lady to infiltrate Global Chemicals, there's plenty to roll one's eyes at. Most of the time, I find it part of the show's charm -but even then, there are stories I just can't forgive, like "Time-Flight", "The Twin Dilemma" or (shudder) "Love and Monsters".

Or the infamous TV movie, for that matter, which has more insanity than I really have time for.

 

[Ryujin]

The Archangel Network, yeah. It's the same kind of applied phlebotinum as the Barber's "web of life and destiny" (I wonder how many people will get that reference, lol). Literally runs on narrativium!

Which the show always has. Being annoyed at the ultra-soft "science" of the show becoming pure fantasy strikes me as pretty odd. The Doctor is a magician who can wave a (literal) magic wand at problems. Deus ex machina being employed to save the day are as old as the show itself, and the Doctor's explanations are often utter nonsense. "Reversed the polarity of the neutron flow", and so on.

Even when the show establishes rules for it's main conceit, that of time travel, it has no problems ignoring them if it makes the story work. See "Blinovitch Limitation Effect" (which apparently stopped being a thing after the Time War, as per the events of "Father's Day"- just pretend Ace didn't hold her own infant mother that one time), the Doctor's supposed inability to alter fixed moments in time (which happen only when time travel isn't allowed to be the answer- thus Rory and Amy are trapped in the past, but "The Waters of Mars" could totally happen) etc., etc..

Or how people lambasted "bi-regeneration" but seem to have forgotten about Logopolis where Four's unregenerated future self was roaming about, only to merge with him to allow the regeneration into Five- how that's any less silly or nonsensical is unclear to me, but one is considered a classic moment for the series and the other is "ridiculous NuWho terrible writing", lol.

Utterly ridiculous stories are the essence of Doctor Who, I don't know how to express this any better. Whether it's Ten and Donna encountering kung fu werewolves in Elizabethan times or Three disguising himself as a cleaning lady to infiltrate Global Chemicals, there's plenty to roll one's eyes at. Most of the time, I find it part of the show's charm (but even then, there are stories I just can't forgive, like "Time-Flight", "The Twin Dilemma" or (shudder) "Love and Monsters".

Or the infamous TV movie, for that matter, which has more insanity than I really have time for.

Phlebotinum - A branch of substances, of unknown provenance, that includes such things as unobtainium.

(At least 3 had the hair for it)

 

[James Gasik]

Phlebotinum - A branch of substances, of unknown provenance, that includes such things as unobtainium.

(At least 3 had the hair for it)

Sorry, I guess I shouldn't assume people grok these sorts of terms. I should define narrativium as well:

An element that ensures everything runs properly as a story. For example, if a boy has two older brothers, chances are they will go on a quest. The first will be strong, and fail because of his stupidity, the second will be smart, and fail because of his frailty and the youngest brother will then have no choice but to go out, succeed and bring fame and fortune to his poor family.

 

[Morrus]

The Archangel Network, yeah. It's the same kind of applied phlebotinum as the Barber's "web of life and destiny" (I wonder how many people will get that reference, lol). Literally runs on narrativium!

Which the show always has. Being annoyed at the ultra-soft "science" of the show becoming pure fantasy strikes me as pretty odd. The Doctor is a magician who can wave a (literal) magic wand at problems. Deus ex machina being employed to save the day are as old as the show itself, and the Doctor's explanations are often utter nonsense. "Reversed the polarity of the neutron flow", and so on.

Even when the show establishes rules for it's main conceit, that of time travel, it has no problems ignoring them if it makes the story work. See "Blinovitch Limitation Effect" (which apparently stopped being a thing after the Time War, as per the events of "Father's Day"- just pretend Ace didn't hold her own infant mother that one time), the Doctor's supposed inability to alter fixed moments in time (which happen only when time travel isn't allowed to be the answer- thus Rory and Amy are trapped in the past, but "The Waters of Mars" could totally happen) etc., etc..

Or how people lambasted "bi-regeneration" but seem to have forgotten about Logopolis where Four's unregenerated future self was roaming about, only to merge with him to allow the regeneration into Five- how that's any less silly or nonsensical is unclear to me, but one is considered a classic moment for the series and the other is "ridiculous NuWho terrible writing", lol.

Utterly ridiculous stories are the essence of Doctor Who, I don't know how to express this any better. Whether it's Ten and Donna encountering kung fu werewolves in Elizabethan times or Three disguising himself as a cleaning lady to infiltrate Global Chemicals, there's plenty to roll one's eyes at. Most of the time, I find it part of the show's charm (but even then, there are stories I just can't forgive, like "Time-Flight", "The Twin Dilemma" or (shudder) "Love and Monsters".

Or the infamous TV movie, for that matter, which has more insanity than I really have time for.

This. It's like somebody watching the Simpsons all the way through and then saying:

s17, ep 21: "This episode is AWFUL because it is a cartoon."

 

[Ryujin]

Sorry, I guess I shouldn't assume people grok these sorts of terms. I should define narrativium as well:

An element that ensures everything runs properly as a story. For example, if a boy has two older brothers, chances are they will go on a quest. The first will be strong, and fail because of his stupidity, the second will be smart, and fail because of his frailty and the youngest brother will then have no choice but to go out, succeed and bring fame and fortune to his poor family.

Nope, I get it. It's a narrative tool that involves inventing a substance of value or utility, for purposes of the story. Unobtainium in "Avatar." Dilitium Crystals in "Star Trek." That sort of thing.

 

[Staffan]

The Archangel Network, yeah. It's the same kind of applied phlebotinum as the Barber's "web of life and destiny" (I wonder how many people will get that reference, lol). Literally runs on narrativium!

Sure, but it was also essential to the Master's ascension. So I think using it to defeat him is perfectly fair game.

 

[James Gasik]

Sure, but it was also essential to the Master's ascension. So I think using it to defeat him is perfectly fair game.

I wasn't arguing that point- in that story, both Time Lords were piling on deus ex machinas to fight each other, as is series tradition. Doctor Who fans need to know when to take the story seriously, and not to. Moments of brilliance coexist with moments of sheer lunacy, and it's always been that way.