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D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

So, I like Narrativist games, and for a fairly long time they were the only games I run and played. But I have learned to enjoy and play other games for what they offer.

My favorite games are actually the sort of character reinforcing trad games like Dune 2d20, Chronicles of Darkness, Legend of the Five Rings Fifth Edition, Tales of Xadia. A lot of what my home group runs tends to be along these veins - including custom Cortex Exalted and our custom Final Fantasy 8 inspired Cypher game. Stuff where we build narrative sandboxes out of the characters we create. Really looking forward to getting my Cosmere books because the Stormlight Archive seems right up my alley

I'm also a very big fan of OSR stuff, especially stuff that takes on the principles and does new stuff with it - especially if it has weird, interesting settings. Stuff like The Nightmares Underneath, Mork Borg, Into the Odd, Dolmenwood.

I'm also a big fan of Kevin Crawford's Sandbox stuff. Especially the stuff that predates Stars Without Number Second Edition (not a fan of the build complexity and standardization that started there). Traveller's cool as well..
My tastes in terms of genre are pretty conventional: mostly fantasy, a bit of sci-fi, a touch of contemporary.

The RPGs I mostly play are dungeon-crawling D&D (my house-ruled variant of the c 1978 version), scene-frame-y D&D (the 2008 version), PbtA-ish Traveller (my modest variation on the 1977 version), Prince Valiant (1989), Burning Wheel (I mostly use the 2005 version, with a few elements from later versions ported in) and Torchbearer 2e (2021). None of this is very radical; it's only the rhetoric of some posters that sometimes makes me feel otherwise.

I just fundamentally believe in taking an expansive view of roleplaying games when we are specifically talking about all roleplaying games. I think when we talk about things like what is and is not a dimension for system design, we should acknowledge that pretty much anything can be part of it and more specific/cohesive experiences are a fine vector for system design.

<snip>

Most of what I'm looking for is to take an expansive view of what roleplaying games are and can be.
I don't know if I have a precise sense of what counts as a RPG. I do have a reasonable sense of what makes for a fairly conventional RPG:

*Central to play is the creation and the change, over the course of play, of a shared fiction;

*This creation doesn't take place in a "writers' room" fashion - rather, there are distinct and asymmetric roles for the participants;

*The GM has a special responsibility for the backstory/setting, and draws on this to present fictional situations to the players;

*The players have a special responsibility for particular characters, who are present within the situations the GM presents, and who respond as described/declared by their players;

*The players' declared actions generate changes to the shared fiction.​

The different ways of doing this are what makes for a system.

Most often, I see "system" used to refer to published rules text - so D&D 5e, or AD&D, or 1981 Traveller, etc, all count as "systems". And secondarily, I see it used to refer to some components of an action resolution method - mostly, the basic framework for characterising difficulties, together with how to generate a dice roll result (eg d% roll low against a fixed skill number; or roll, add a bonus, and reach a target number; etc). When used in this way, the principles that govern the setting of the difficulty, the consequences of the check, and the like, are not normally included as part of the system.

But when I think of system in an analytic/explanatory context, I think of the method - the procedures, principles, heuristics, mechanics, etc - used to work out the content of the shared fiction, and how it changes. At a minimum, system includes the GM's methods for undertaking and using prep; how the ingame situation is established, and presented to the players; how actions are declared by players, and what counts as a permissible action declaration; and how consequences of actions are established.

I just take a more expansive view of what counts as railroading though not as expansive as @pemerton. My bear minimum is that social expectation can be railroading as much as more overt forms. This stuff is probably more personal to me because my early gaming history was all about escaping from what was a pretty pervasive climate of linear / AP play.

I also think autonomy and impact of decisions are both important elements of agency. If you feel personally attacked by a definition of agency that implies being able to make real changes and have decent information quality should be expected in most play, I hope you do. That's not a knock on sandbox play. That's a knock on play that has no regard for interaction design.
For me, RPGing is about the shared fiction and how it changes. And in a conventional RPG, that's all about the relationship between framing of scenes/presentation of situations (by the GM), declaration of actions (by the players, for their PCs) and what follows from those declared actions (consequences and outcomes).

So the more the GM controls of all this - where, as I've posted upthread (making the analogy to other games, like chess and bridge), control is not the same as authority - the more of a railroad it is: the GM is controlling the shared fiction (perhaps in response to player prompts). The converse of this is player agency - the players exercising control over the shared fiction. The asymmetric roles in the game mean that the GM will always have some control, particularly via framing and some aspects of outcome/consequence. But when the GM has all of it, or most of it - eg all the players are doing is to declare what actions their PCs take, but all the rest is with the GM - then that's what I call a railroad.
 

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So? Game concepts aren't holy.

Which is why I think it's great that there are a ton of other games out there in case you don't care for D&D's concepts.

I'm not going to say it can't work for some people. That doesn't make me required to consider it a generally good idea, nor to not say so because it upsets some people. If you take it as applying to you, that's on you.

It's fine that D&D doesn't work for you. But people also excuse saying biased things by saying "It's just a joke". This is a forum and a thread dedicated to D&D General and you constantly go beyond stating what you like and into inflammatory language that the game is objectively bad and harmful. You do no frame it as your opinion, you just state it as fact. If anyone else wrote in the same fashion, that people that play narrative games are just ignorant fools that don't know better, there would rightfully be metaphorical torches and pitchforks. Heck there's already plenty of accusations that I've said they're terrible when all I've ever said that they don't work for me.
 


This is hardly an example of that (the idea of the authority of the GM has sprawled across many games) and even if it were distinct that doesn't make it something that is intrinsically a good idea immune to criticism.

D&D is it's own thing, but if GM authority didn't work for people I rather doubt it would be used by other games unless it was useful. Just like HP and being fine until you're dead is commonplace in a wide array of video games. The concept of HP isn't great but it serves a purpose. Just like the GM having a different role than the rest of the players.
 

I never said that a dungeon crawl and a sandbox are the same.
I was told that the difference is only one of scope. Is that wrong? I think it's wrong.
No, I'm talking about the game that people play at the table. Not the game system. The actual game being played.

GM's design and construct all manner of things to actually play the game. If they don't, then there is no game.
So you're trying to alter definitions to confuse things. Now we're supposed to accept that there's Game Design and game design, instead of just saying what they are? Not me. There's Game Design, Setting Design and Playstyle. That way, you know, we can actually understand what is being talked about instead of confusing things.
You need to stop telling other people what they know. I pointed out the contradiction because, as I said earlier, I sometimes don't even know if he realizes he's doing it.

So yeah... I found it relevant.
There was no contradiction. Not if you could understand the very clear context of the post.
 

There was no contradiction. Not if you could understand the very clear context of the post.
Yeah, I think it is not worth getting into that. But it wasn't a contradiction. If you look at everything I said and was saying to that point, I think that is pretty clear. I can on the one hand accept the reality that D&D forms many default norms in the hobby, use language most of the hobby agrees upon, but feel others are free to join the conversation. What I objected to was the twisting of that language to win the argument by just changing the meaning of words, rather than properly convincing people. Like I said in another post if you think sandbox doesn’t make good on its promise, just say that don’t just re-term them GM driven while professing love for them (because it comes off as trying to persuade people by capturing the language, so they are forced to agree by definition, not because they actually agree with you). That is a fundamental problem on their side of the conversation and I was addressing that. But what I wasn’t doing was saying they can’t come to the table with their own views and own positions on play style and system. And I was very open to the idea of a sandbox driven by the kinds of system they were advocating for. But I will push back on language that feels like a rhetorical tactic to force people to accept their views. And that is what stuff like the redefinition of railroad, agency, etc feel like.
 
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Well, we're in a thread about challenging the conservatism of D&D fans. Despite my love of D&D, I do think that much of the fanbase is too conservative about the game. I think this of many fandoms. People tend to become fans of something and then they don't want it to change. It's an understandable viewpoint... but one that I think is limiting and ultimately harmful to the subject.
So of course your One True Way is the right and unharmful one. :rolleyes:
 

I could run games in a mitre.

Related, I dated a girl in graduate school that thought I dressed up like a wizard when I ran D&D games. She had seen my apartment. I don't know where she thought I was hiding the robes and hat.
My wife's best friend was disappointed when she found out that my group and I didn't dress up when we played. :LOL:
 


Back in the mid-2000s, when The Forge was at its peak, all of this was still in its infancy. Indie creators were competing for limited warehouse space, limited shelf space in stores, and often had to invest significant capital just to bring a product to market. Angry, frustrated, and feeling marginalized, figures like Ron Edwards, Vincent Baker, and others lashed out, not by selling their ideas on their merits, but by leaning into rhetoric designed to inflame: “stick it to the man,” “rage against the system,” and so on.
Is The Forge where the disparaging term, "play to find out the GM's notes" that gets bandied about by that side of the discussion comes from?
 

Into the Woods

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