D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Bedrockgames]

I'm not declaring "absolute truth", I'm declaring what I believe is true and why... which is based on the actual definition of agency.

Is it? Agency means different things in different fields and in RPGs I would say what it means is still actively debated. I think what we are arguing over is which side is using the more standard definition for the hobby

 

[pemerton]

I consider BW lacking in meaningful agency when you have to roll a die to make a decision (i.e. a steel roll) for the character.

This is not actually a correct account of the play of Burning Wheel.

 

[Maxperson]

I took you up on that challenge and googled away. Turns out I still couldn't find anyone claiming there to be two types of player agency. All I got was a bunch of think pieces regarding player agency in general, some even describing it as something of an illusion. The closest I got to your definition was a blog post written by Monte Cook that claimed that some people would falsely claim that narrative control was player agency, something he disagreed with. I'm still not seeing the same buy in as you are.

Dude. The first hit after the AI stuff says "Player agency is.." the second says, "First off? Character agency is..."

Don't know what to say if you couldn't see that.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't want to because it takes me out of my character. When I'm playing D&D, it's like reading a book where I really start to identify with the protagonist of the book. When the protagonist feels sad or anguished, I start to feel it too. Have me describe the world and I start to lose that. The analogy I used somewhere above was watching a movie. I'm not analyzing the cinematography, lighting, what techniques are being used. I'm letting myself experience and get carried away by the movie, transporting myself into that story for an hour and a half.

We already had this discussion in another thread a few months ago. Suffice it to say that playing a character who needs to ask the DM who lives in his hometown or who his family members are is something many of us find deeply anti-immersive.

The whole point of being able to say, as a player, what sort of patrons I see in a tavern is to enhance my immersion.

 

[pemerton]

They did not hesitate because the player running the character thought they would, they hesitated because the dice told them to. That, to me, reduces my agency as a player because the game told me what my character felt.

Upthread, you said that you thought it would be bad RPGing for the players to just get everything they want. Now you're complaining about a RPG where a player might fail to achieve their goal of having their PC murder in cold blood.

And in D&D, a character can hesitate even if the player doesn't choose for them to hesitate: they can be surprised; or lose initiative; or miss a roll to hit and have the GM narrate that as hesitation.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Is it? Agency means different things in different fields and in RPGs I would say what it means is still actively debated. I think what we are arguing over is which side is using the more standard definition for the hobby

Sure. And I've explained my reasoning. I've shown how agency works for players in other games, and then applied that same reasoning for RPGs. When viewed that way, it's pretty easy to see.

It's only when we either reject the idea that RPGs are games, or that they cannot be looked at as games for this purpose, that this becomes unclear... but I can't agree with any idea that requires us to not look at RPGs as games.

 

[pemerton]

Then let's put it this way. A player makes 5 decisions during a session that has the potential to have significant impact on the state of play, 5 instances where they expressed agency.

What do you mean by "significant impact"? Do you mean bringing about a change that they hoped to bring about? Or bringing about a change that has significant ramifications for a goal that the PC hopes to attain? Or prompting the GM to say something that is a big change to the setting?

Or perhaps something else?

 

[TwoSix]

They did not hesitate because the player running the character thought they would, they hesitated because the dice told them to. That, to me, reduces my agency as a player because the game told me what my character felt.

It didn't tell you what your character felt. It told you what your character was capable of.

In D&D, my character might feel like he can run through an orc. But he rolled a 5 on his attack roll. Whether that roll was a failure in physical execution, a failure in will or bravery, or simply luck and happenstance is entirely in your court as a player to decide.

 

[robertsconley]

Here's a post from upthread,

Thank You now I can answer your questions.

For instance, the player declares "I look around, hoping to see a vessel to catch the spurting blood in."

Or the players collectively declare "We skedaddle, so the pirates don't find and catch us."

In Burning Wheel, whether an Intent+Task is an example of character agency or meta-agency depends on whether the declared intent respects world logic.

Burning Wheel prioritizes success above all. The rules are clear: a successful roll means the intent happens. The GM cannot override it. That works fine when the intent makes sense in the fiction. But if the world as established makes that intent impossible, then honoring it shifts the resolution into meta-agency. The system enforces success because the player followed the process, not because the world supported it.

Let It Ride adds to this. Once a roll succeeds, that outcome stands. Even if something happens later that logically calls for a new check, the GM is told not to call for another roll unless the situation changes drastically. That can lead to results that no longer match the fiction, but the system insists the success holds. Again, the player acts based on what they know as a player, not just what the character perceives.

In Living World play, when we use theater of the mind, things are sometimes loose; as a result, the differences between the Living World approach and the Burning Wheel approach are minimal. But when we have concrete maps, minis, or known geography, the fiction is fixed. The world is what matters. If the alley is a dead end, you can't escape through it, no matter how well you roll. With Living World sandboxes, the world is sacrosanct, not the roll.

So, whether we are talking theater of the mind or concrete visuals, you give examples of Character Agency when using Living World. However, the Intent + Task system of Burning Wheel depends on whether the intent is consistent with the fiction.

 

[pemerton]

In D&D, my character might feel like he can run through an orc. But he rolled a 5 on his attack roll. Whether that roll was a failure in physical execution, a failure in will or bravery, or simply luck and happenstance is entirely in your court as a player to decide.

In typical D&D play, isn't it in the GM's court to narrate?