D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

Against NPC opponents, sure - but does it work if-when used by NPCs on PCs, or by one PC on another?

They didn't give those abilities to NPCs. For a reason.

PC vs. PC would probably work as written in the rules, but the game isn't designed for characters to fight each other.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I see a difference, I just don’t think it matters.

I understand that you and others have strong feelings about rules that remove your ability to control your character and/or your character’s thoughts and feelings. I don’t blame anyone who feels that way.

But that doesn’t mean that games that involve such rules are automatically removing player agency.

How is a mechanic that impacts freedom to control your character not impacting agency? I have no issue with these mechanics (I actually wish people were more open to them because I think they can enhance things like horror RPGs a lot), but that seems to pretty much be text book agency disruption

 

[AlViking]

Because I think it matters to you as a preference, but doesn’t matter as pertaining to your description.

In both cases, you’re still finding something out. That there are differences that we can see in the two things doesn’t mean that there aren’t also similarities. So your description seems poorly applied.

Now… having said that, I totally understand why you might have that preference, and so avoid the games that include it.

What I said was that I wouldn't learn anything about my character. I already new there was X% chance of failure. If I attack an orc I know I may not hit so it's not a surprise and I don't learn anything when it happened, just that there are numbers on my D20 lower than what I need to roll. It's not revelatory, it's not revealing to actually have to roll dice it's just ... boring.

If you like it, that's fine. But instead you have to tell me that I'm wrong and explain why, except that I don't agree with your reasoning which you seem to refuse to accept.

- edit typo

 

[AlViking]

How is a mechanic that impacts freedom to control your character not impacting agency? I have no issue with these mechanics (I actually wish people were more open to them because I think they can enhance things like horror RPGs a lot), but that seems to pretty much be text book agency disruption

One of the reasons that D&D doesn't really do horror (although it can do creepy monster of the week), is because of the assumption that the player controls the character. But it's also that the characters are a cut above the rest in a world where eldritch horrors lurking around a corner just means that those darned cultists are at it again. You need an entirely different mindset for horror, and usually different assumptions about the world and what kind of character you're playing.

 

[Maxperson]

That's, like, your opinion man. I seem to get incredibly rich, deep (to the point of serious emotional resonance) roleplaying out of games that are designed with binding social mechanics that far exceed anything I was able to experience in 5e Adventure Path or OSR sandbox play.

Yeah. People have different priorities and desires in what they prefer for their games. There's no reason why you couldn't get that depth or roleplay out of a game that would fail @Lanefan and myself.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They didn't give those abilities to NPCs. For a reason.

PC vs. PC would probably work as written in the rules, but the game isn't designed for characters to fight each other.

Worked out well enough in 4e. We ran 4e arena fights 1 on 1 on 1 for about six months after our group lost faith in 4e as our RPG. It was a blast!

 

[Bedrockgames]

One of the reasons that D&D doesn't really do horror (although it can do creepy monster of the week), is because of the assumption that the player controls the character. But it's also that the characters are a cut above the rest in a world where eldritch horrors lurking around a corner just means that those darned cultists are at it again. You need an entirely different mindset for horror, and usually different assumptions about the world and what kind of character you're playing.

To be clear, I think you can do horror without such mechanics, because immersed players are going to be afraid of unknown threats. These kinds of mechanics are just one way to enhance horror, but fighting a werewolf is still scary without them

But I think D&D does horror very well actually. It isn't the same as Cthulhu, but I found Ravenloft a very effective horror setting. And I used to run it into the higher levels. It had fear and horror effects, which I thought worked well. But one of the ideas behind them, was you didn't invoke them if the player was roleplaying the fear.

 

[robertsconley]

My point has only been that they still fall under the category of player agency.

I agree. The distinction I’m making between character agency and meta-agency is not meant to replace the broader category of player agency. It’s meant to give us a way to talk about how different systems structure it. Just like physics didn't replace chemistry, but offered deeper tools to understand it, this breakdown is meant to clarify, not discard, the whole.

Because to me, the most important aspect of player agency is the players' accurate understanding of the state of the game...

You’re prioritizing transparency and knowability. I think that’s one very useful standard to use when discussing agency in various systems. What you phrase as the state of the game, I phrase it as context, and there are various techniques I use, like Initial Context, being open to questions, to make sure the players have an accurate understanding of their circumstances both immediate and for the campaign as a whole. One crucial aspect is the players' understanding that the world has logic and continuity, even if parts of it are unknown or opaque.

 

[AlViking]

Worked out well enough in 4e. We ran 4e arena fights 1 on 1 on 1 for about six months after our group lost faith in 4e as our RPG. It was a blast!

The very first PvP we did was back in OD&D. I told another my fighter could whup his wizard, the wizard cast a spell and I made the save. The wizard didn't last long after that.

 

[pemerton]

There's nothing there saying another player can call for a Steel test, only the GM can.

Correct. I've posted that multiple times upthread.