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D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

During the Day in a Rural environment 14 or better on a 1d20.

Is this checked per hex? Or by travel time? If an encounter is indicated, how is the encounter then determined?

It was a timeline encounter. The young couple were travelling south from Woodford. The party didn't delay their departure or get sidetracked along the way. So they met at the location marked Campsite on the night of Day 2. The couple left Woodford the afternoon of Day 2.

Because the young couple left Woodford on the afternoon of Day 2.

So this is essentially a set encounter? I mean, I suppose that if the party delayed it may have changed the nature of the encounter... perhaps they'd have come across the aftermath or something similar?

Given that there doesn't seem any other reason for the characters to even exist other than to engage with this job, I don't see why they would delay. So, this just seems like the plan all along.

Now, again, I imagine that this is the nature of a one-shot. I don't think that this is indicative of what you've been describing as part of your living world approach. But I don't think that selecting a one-shot with a clear goal set out is the best example to choose to highlight that.

So just to clarify, you’re saying that PbtA moves are essentially no different than ability checks in 5e? That something like “do something under fire” or “go aggro” is functionally equivalent to a player describing what they do and then rolling Perception or Athletics?

From what I’ve read in PbtA (specifically Apocalypse World 2e), moves are specific mechanics that only trigger when something particular happens in the fiction, like threatening someone, acting under pressure, or reading a situation. They’re not general-purpose checks. The outcomes are structured, with each result pushing the fiction forward in a way that fits the genre and tone of the game.

Yes, both systems involve players narrating their characters’ actions, but the mechanics that follow, and how they’re framed, are quite different. That’s not just an aesthetic distinction; it reflects a fundamental difference in design philosophy.

Honestly, if I claimed that PbtA moves and 5e skill checks were equivalent, I suspect many PbtA players would strongly disagree. I’d be curious to hear if others familiar with both mechanics see them as functionally interchangeable, as you stated.

I'm saying that players in PbtA games mostly just say what their characters do and say, as you described for your game. They don't tend to speak in the language of moves and the like. So for instance, the player of the knight would say "I think I can get there before there's any harm to the woman... I charge!" Then the GM would say "okay, that sounds like a clash move... roll + Strength".

It's not really any different than what you would describe for your game, except that the attack has a label in the form of a move.

The format of moves is indeed different than 5e style skill checks... but still, they are triggered by a player saying what their character says or does.

He was able to get within 50 yards before charging and a horse in my Majestic Fantasy Rules can move 60 yards a round (180'). Moreso he was knight , a class specific to my Majestic Fantasy rules and thus trained as a mounted warrior. In short he felt he had he situation covered and acted accordingly. But things could have go wrong he could rolled a nat 1. He could have missed one or both ruffians he acting. The odd were in his favor but not certain.

Sure, I expect his knowledge of the rules played a strong part in that. As described, without knowing exactly how the rules work, I would have hesitated. But knowing the rules lets a player act with clear expectations.

Not sure what you getting at. you did understand I was discussing the times I was running the adventure and generalizing the results.

I was just asking why you never used any social rolls of any kind. Was there anything uncertain in any of the interactions between the party and the couple? You explained how different groups reacted to the couple.... but it seems the couple just reacted to every group the same?

You made little to no comment on:
  • The roleplaying at the court.
  • The roleplaying among the players before they left.
  • The interaction with the pilgrim at the tavern

Instead, you focused almost entirely on the mechanical resolution in one scene (the lovers) and the aftermath. Your comments on the mechanics showed a lack of engagement with the way first-person roleplaying shaped the situation. And your question about forgery didn't account for the fact that I was discussing how different groups handled it across multiple sessions.

The only remark I made about the roleplay was about your requirement that everyone speak in first person. I find that an interesting choice and I am curious about it. If you care to elaborate on that.

Otherwise, I didn't make any comments about this because I understand how it works. The procedure, such as it is, is pretty easily understood.

Looking at your reply, it seems you approached my actual play write-up like a system analysis document, filtering everything through the lens of mechanical triggers and resolution structures. That’s fine as a preference, but it misses what the session was actually showing: that first-person declaration, consistent world logic, and continuity of events were doing the heavy lifting in how play unfolded.

Given your knowledge and participation here on the forum, I’m surprised that didn’t come through more clearly.

I don't think this example shows what you claim it does. The continuity of events seems predetermined. Consistent world logic isn't really a strong factor as far as I can tell.

Again, I think it's the one-shot nature of the scenario... there are always going to be limitations when that's the case.

The fact that different groups handled the situation in different ways does show some of the player freedom you've highlighted about the living world style... but I think that's about all that came through.
 

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I am sure Rob’s overall goal is that people have fun. But I think he doesn’t think the game is enhanced by having fun steer the GMs decisions. The point here is GM as neutral arbiter. I have no problem with fun outcomes in my games. But what Rob talking about is something I get. I see it as part of a more naturalistic approach to play that places strong emphasis on GM neutrality and impartiality. If you are considering what is fun, that is a bias that can lead you away from what is more plausible. But people who go for this will tell you they are still having fun, because that is the kind of play they want. It is a style of play that feels more documentarian

Sure, I get that... I was just explaining why it might seem difficult for someone to grasp that a GM would actively not consider fun. That was the question you asked of @Hussar , so I just figured I'd offer an answer because it seems obvious to me, even if I realize that the expectations of play may matter more than is being considered.
 

You're misreading what I’m doing, and it’s leading you to conclusions that don’t match how my tables actually work.

First, plausibility isn’t an “exclusion criterion” in the sense you’re implying. It’s a way to frame outcomes so they follow from what’s already established in the setting. That doesn’t mean I’m ignoring fun or player engagement. It means I’m trusting that when players interact with a world that reacts plausibly and independently, fun and meaning emerge from their choices, not because I manufactured drama, but because the game state respects what they do.

As for dice rolls “disclaiming responsibility,” I don’t use them to pass the buck, I use them to reduce bias. When multiple outcomes are equally plausible, I often roll to keep the decision from being about what I think is most interesting. That keeps the focus on the setting and the players' actions, not on my judgment as an author. It’s not me stepping away from responsibility, it’s me staying committed to the integrity of the process.

You say it’s emergence for emergence’s sake. But to me, that’s like saying exploration is just walking for walking’s sake. The whole point of the Living World approach is that meaning comes from what happens, not from what I script. You might not value that kind of discovery-based play, but that doesn’t mean it’s aimless.

We’re working from different assumptions. That’s fine. But if you want to understand what I’m doing, you need to engage with the method on its own terms, not reframe it through a lens where “interesting for the players” always means “crafted by the referee.”

Take tabletop roleplaying itself. The universe didn’t design it for your entertainment. It existed. You found it. You played. And in doing so, you discovered it was meaningful to you. That’s how I run my campaigns. I don’t shape the world to entertain, I shape it to exist. The enjoyment comes from the players discovering what that means to them.

I'm maybe not communicating what I (and @pemerton) are saying.

In the 'moment' of making an NPC decision, you're not thinking about the players, you have total disregard for them. If you were thinking about them, then you'd be warping the world in relation to them right?

Say I'm playing a Narrativist game and I'm thinking about what the Countess should do next. If I think 'well on Sam's character sheet it says they obey and respect the nobility, how about I have the Countess order them to clear the beggars off the street, that's a sweet moral choice.' My decisions are based on an end goal, create a moral quandary.


But, it will be plausible. So our Narrativist is using plausibility + moral quandary FOR THE PLAYERS

Or there's another type of Narrativist play where the decision is plausibility + statement about the human condition (note that this has nothing to do with the players)

When you make a decision, there is nothing 'but' the plausibility, which is why it's an exclusion criteria.

Plausibility + (nothing)


Yes of course on a group level you and your players find this fun and interesting otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.

Disclaiming responsibility is a term of art, I meant it as shorthand for taking the decision out of your hands, it's not meant to be read in a negative way and Apocalypse World considers it a vital part of the process when playing to find out.

On emergence for emergences sake. You got me there and I stand corrected. It's the players ability to set goals without the world 'forming itself around them', such that they 'get what they get.' + the joy of exploration of a lived in world.
 

I don't think plausibility works as a creative heuristic - that it's not useful to generate what could possibly happen. It is very useful as a constraint / criterion to evaluate of the things that could possibly happen what is most likely. I think there is more going on than just extrapolating. There has been in my own sandbox GMing.

This is not a why bother critique. I think plausibility as a criterion is profoundly useful. I just think it's not super useful in talking about differences between playstyles. I think getting to the heuristics that help us generate rather than exclude possibilities will tell us a lot more about the differences.

You might think I am wrong, but this is how I legitimately see it. I just don't think plausibility gives life to a bazaar or puts words in an NPC's mouth. I don't think it's emergence for emergence sake - there is something going on creatively in almost every instance. I think getting to what is going on creatively will help us to really understand the differences.
 
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I don't think plausibility works as a creative heuristic - that it's not useful to generate what could possibly happen. It is very useful as a constraint / criterion to evaluate of the things that could possibly happen what is most likely. I think there is more going on than just extrapolating. There has been in my own sandbox GMing.

This is not a why bother critique. I think plausibility as a criterion is profoundly useful. I just think it's not super useful in talking about differences between playstyles. I think getting to the heuristics that help us generate rather than exclude possibilities will tell us a lot more about the differences.

You might think I am wrong, but this is how I legitimately see it. I just don't think plausibility gives life to a bazaar or puts words in an NPC's mouth.

It's a weird one because if you ask me how I make character decisions then I'll say something like 'it just feels like what that character would do.' and it does feel like that in that moment. Which doesn't yield much up in the way of analysis. My view of what a character is and the types of characters that are fit, is of course heavily shaped by my play priorities.
 

Agreed. More specifically, the goal should be sufficiency, or what I call "good enough." If a referee can think of a handful of plausible outcomes, that’s already more than enough. In most situations, even two possibilities will do the job.

The only real drawback in this process is that the referee’s personal experience and knowledge play an outsized role. The more you’ve lived and read, the more raw material you have to draw from, and the easier it becomes to generate plausible outcomes on the fly. That’s why, when people write or publish advice about sandbox campaigns, not just my Living World approach, they need to think about how to translate the judgment they use themselves into something teachable or coachable for others.

One of the strengths of Burning Wheel, Powered by the Apocalypse, and Blades in the Dark is that their authors have baked in some of that expertise directly into the mechanics. That’s a design strength, and something I try to keep in mind when writing about sandbox play: how do you help a new referee make good calls without needing decades of experience?

Think of it as establishing the “initial context” that lets a referee hit the ground running, and have fun, when launching a sandbox campaign.
Well, that strength does have the downside of being not necessarily interesting to others. I'm not interested in Apocalypse World because I don't particularly like the style of apocalypse presented in the book (and in many post-apocalypse settings, so not singling AW out here). On the other hand, my group will be starting a play-by-post of Legacy: Life Among the Ruins soon. That's also a PbtA post-apocalypse game, but it's about groups trying to rebuild the world over multiple generations, which I do like. And fortunately, the concept is fun to my group as well, so we're going to have a session 0 soon to set it all up.

But yes, I agree--you have to have at least some knowledge and experience to know where to go next. On the other hand, if you don't actually know much about history, politics, the rise and fall of empires, etc., and you come up with a technically non-plausible idea that's still fun for you and the group, hey, that's fine too.
 

But, that's contrary to the idea that the world runs on its own logic and results from events should follow from what is most plausible. You are choosing results and events because they make a fun game. Fantastic. That's just being a good DM. But, @robertsconley is very insistent that his decision making process is completely divorced from what he thinks would make an "interesting" event. That everything that happens is based on the logic of the setting.
Take out the word "most" and that's what we do. Our decision may not be the most plausible, but it will be plausible and that's all that is necessary for the world to run on its own logic and events to flow from what is plausible.
 

Take out the word "most" and that's what we do. Our decision may not be the most plausible, but it will be plausible and that's all that is necessary for the world to run on its own logic and events to flow from what is plausible.
Of course the strange thing is that a real living world doesn't run on the logic of what is plausible! So we may, and I do, abstract our campaign worlds based on what we deem plausible, that is ultimately a very narrow range of what is plausible or possible.
 

Of course the strange thing is that a real living world doesn't run on the logic of what is plausible! So we may, and I do, abstract our campaign worlds based on what we deem plausible, that is ultimately a very narrow range of what is plausible or possible.
I mean, when you look at the rest of the galaxy, Earth starts to look pretty implausible. :)
 

Of course the strange thing is that a real living world doesn't run on the logic of what is plausible! So we may, and I do, abstract our campaign worlds based on what we deem plausible, that is ultimately a very narrow range of what is plausible or possible.
So long as what is gone with is plausible, it's still a living world that runs on the logic of what is plausible. I don't need to think of every possible plausible outcome and go with what is the most plausible in order for that to be so.

I'm curious why you think that a living world doesn't run on the logic of plausibility.
 

Into the Woods

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