D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

This is well-thought-out post. However, it is not a fair evaluation, and because of both its complexity and the nature of this thread, I feel it’s important to break it down into its components so each can be addressed concisely.

The core of your argument is this:



This is clear, strong, and consistent theme throughout your post. You’re asking: Where is the actual constraint on the GM? Not just in theory, but something that the GM can’t undo, rewrite, or discard at will.

While that a good point to discuss, the way you've framed the rest of your post doesn’t deal fairly with how sandbox or traditional refereeing actually works.

Strong Points
You make some compelling points.

1. The “Black Box” Metaphor
You state that the world lives inside a "black box" only the referee can see is useful. This point gets at the asymmetry of information in many RPGs, especially traditional ones and how I run my living world sandbox. Players don’t see the whole world, so they can’t verify what the referee is doing behind the curtain.

2. Plausibility
You point out that “plausibility” isn't a hard constraint if it's something the referee defines moment to moment. Because it rests on judgment call made by the referee it could become a series of arbitrary decisions with all the issues that entails.

3. Anticipating Common Responses
You’re clearly familiar with the typical counterpoints.

The players shape context
You argue that if the GM can override or alter unseen context, player influence is limited.

The GM doesn’t control player responses
You make the point that if the GM controls the menu of choices, they shape outcomes indirectly.

Trust the GM
That’s not a mechanical constraint, just a social expectation.

All of these are points of discussion that any proponents of sandbox or traditional play styles need to address.

The Problems
Where your argument breaks down is in a few key places.

1. Conflating Hidden Information with Total Control
You treat the referee having more knowledge as the same thing as the referee having unlimited power. However, that was not reflected in actual play.

A referee could ignore previous events, established facts, and world logic. But in a Living World sandbox, they don’t, because the goal is consistency over time. If goblins weren’t in the High Forest last session, and now they are, the reason why matters. The referee might roll on a table. They might follow an NPC’s goal from three sessions ago. They might reference a timeline the players triggered indirectly.

That’s not omnipotence. That’s extrapolation from prior events. The players might not see all of it right away, but that doesn’t mean it’s arbitrary.

To put it plainly: Just because you don’t see the dice roll or the note saying “goblin raiding party en route,” doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

2. No Acknowledgment of Procedural Constraint
A key feature of sandbox refereeing is its procedural framework, which includes calendars, encounter tables, NPC goals, faction timelines, openness to discussion, and domain-level consequences. These are not written in stone, but they are put into practice session after session. They’re what creates inertia, accountability, and consequences.

If the players don't go to the goblin-infested hills, the goblins raid a nearby village. The referee doesn't make that up for dramatic effect; they follow the consequences of the player's choices.

You don’t address this at all, and it’s a serious omission. It’s like judging a chess game without acknowledging the rulebook, just assuming the player is moving pieces however they want because you can’t see the rules.

3. Strawmanning the referee’s Role
The way you describe the referee’s authority as “black-box-controller” who curates plausible options feels more like a caricature than what actually happens during actual play.

Players don’t just react to referee-fed situations. In my campaigns, they choose where to go, who to talk to, what problems to solve, and even which rumors to ignore. The referee doesn’t hand them a list of “acceptable choices”, the players create direction. The GM responds with consequences based on the circumstances.

It’s not “the referee decides what happens.” It’s “the referee shows what happens because of what you did.”

The Framing Issue
The bigger issue is how your post frames traditional and sandbox play style.

You’re not just criticizing a few weak arguments. You’re implying that sandbox refereeing is inherently untrustworthy, opaque, and based entirely on social dynamics rather than game structure. That’s not a critique, that’s a dismissal. It invalidates an entire tradition of play by assuming that any non-visible constraint is no constraint at all.

And that’s simply not fair.

There’s room to ask for clarity and consistency. But to suggest that Living World referees are just cloaking fiat in jargon is uncharitable, and it undermines genuine differences in play philosophy.

Wrapping it up
If your goal is to build understanding between playstyles, the question shouldn’t be “Where are the mechanical handcuffs?” It should be, “How does this referee create continuity and earn trust without visible mechanics?”

Because that’s what I do with my Living World sandbox campaigns. Working from extrapolated logic, built-up consequences, and player-driven momentum, not narrative control or spontaneous authorship. @Brendanbedrock and others use similar techniques and ideas to do the same with their campaigns.

That may not satisfy the kind of systemic transparency you’re looking for. But it is a form of structure. Just not the kind that fits neatly into a rulebook.
I'm afraid my sleep meds are kicking in (it is extremely late but I need to sleep), so I cannot respond to this post right now.

I just wanted to say, before any other response, this is an EXCELLENT response and is pretty much ideal, like this goes above and beyond what I was hoping for. So, regardless of anything else that comes from this, truly and sincerely, thank you. It means a great deal to me on several fronts.
 

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And yet I've played quite a bit of D&D that...didn't work that way. That wasn't the GM authoring the entirety of the world and waiting to see which dominoes I tipped over. GMs who instead worked with me and other players, who made it an actual conversation, not a dictation.

Do you have a point? D&D is flexible, if I had a group that showed interest in creating world lore I would consider setting up a different campaign world and we would do that. Nobody has expressed interest in doing that and I have no burning desire to build a new campaign world based on committee preferences.

Perhaps you could find games you enjoy and stop crapping all over our preferences.
 

(B) Recognize that the "principle" is literally just gut feeling. If that's actually all it is, just say that, rather than throwing up words like "realism" and "consistency" and "plausibility" etc. as though it truly did have a structured, philosophical underpinning that is somehow ineffable. It's perfectly fine to just say "I do what feels right", if that is in fact what you do. That recognizes that there really isn't any particular pattern or rubric or principle or guideline etc., it's just following gut instinct where it leads. Nothing wrong with using intuition in a leisure-time exercise....if we recognize it as intuition, and not as a procedure or principle that can be discussed. (Not something I personally have done in this thread, since...that's not what I do. But if it were, I'd say so; e.g. if the conversation were about how I balance custom moves in DW, I really do kinda just do that by intuition, on the basis of the loose statistical spread of results I've seen in play, and then tweak it later if it falls short in one way or another.)
we have beaten this part of the conversation into the ground. But I want to point out: doing what feels right is not at all the same as doing what feels plausible or realistic. No one is denying different GMs will gauge those two things in different ways. But using realism as a guideline leads you to very different places than doing what feels right or what feels like it drives the game towards excitement. How a Gm makes these decisions matter, and they do impact agency
 

I must beg your forgiveness for being rather annoyed at your phrasing here, when you took me to task for saying literally exactly that only a few posts ago...

As for the actual response to what you're saying here?

No, unfortunately, there isn't GM advice discouraging people from doing this. In fact, there's a hell of a lot of advice out there for exactly the opposite. Like when Matt Colville, a GM whose overall technique I generally find quite good, explicitly talked about how he fudges dice frequently to force specific outcomes--to the point that he will even pre-roll dice so that he can lift his GM screen and "prove" that he really did roll what he claimed to have rolled, even though he did not. He explicitly described this in a Youtube video.

There's a lot of GM advice out there. A lot of it encourages GMs to railroad. In my experience, very little discourages railroading--and none of it ever asserts that railroading is in any way poor technique. Indeed, it's very much the reverse, that railroading is good technique, if and only if you never allow your players to find out that you're doing it.

Even the 5.0 DMG hinted in that direction. I no longer have the page citation, but there's a bit where it straight-up says that you don't really need to pay any attention to the rules of the roll. If it's in the bottom third-ish (e.g. 1-7), it fails. If it's in the top third-ish (e.g. 14-20), it succeeds. And if it's somewhere in the middle, go with your gut. I believe the original version of this, as printed in the "D&D Next" playtest, literally said "your players will never know".

So...yeah. Railroading really isn't advised against, or at the very least, not nearly as much as advising that people do it but hide it.
Almost any sandbox adventure or system designed with sandbox as the aim is going to advise against railroading. It is literally the thing you are supposed to avoid in sandboxes. I don’t play 5E, in part because I think WOTC gives awful GM advice and I don’t think WOTC is very good at flavor. We could go back and review when railroading was at its heights. Personally I got into sandbox because I found the d20 era approach to adventure too railroads for my taste. But just venture outside that. A game like ACKS prioritizes agency. There is a whole section on agency in arbiter of worlds and a lot of arbiter of worlds made its way into the Gm book of the new edition. Rob Conley doesn’t encourage railroads in his games nor do I. Most of the OSR would consider railroading to be bad GMing
 

When I talk about normative standards of discussion I'm not talking about judgement. I'm talking about erasure when it comes to broad discussion of roleplaying games (on this site). It's about the normative standards of play being assumed to be worthy of respect while other ways of playing roleplaying games are assumed to be less worthy and must justify themselves against that normative standard instead of being treated as just a different way to play.

It's especially frustrating to deal with this from people I have been discussing this sort of stuff with for decades on this site. One would think the familiarity would lead people to not treat how we play as this like weird, strange thing that does not get to be included when addressing roleplaying games more broadly, especially contextually when discussing them with us.

This is also fairly localized to this particular site. Other online spaces where roleplaying games are discussed seem to be a lot more welcoming to the diversity of play.
 
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I must beg your forgiveness for being rather annoyed at your phrasing here, when you took me to task for saying literally exactly that only a few posts ago...

As for the actual response to what you're saying here?

No, unfortunately, there isn't GM advice discouraging people from doing this. In fact, there's a hell of a lot of advice out there for exactly the opposite. Like when Matt Colville, a GM whose overall technique I generally find quite good, explicitly talked about how he fudges dice frequently to force specific outcomes--to the point that he will even pre-roll dice so that he can lift his GM screen and "prove" that he really did roll what he claimed to have rolled, even though he did not. He explicitly described this in a Youtube video.
I like Matt Colville, and I am not familiar with this particular video but I do think he has different sensibilities around this stuff. If his players are happy, fair enough. Personally I am not a fan of this kind of fudging. I think if the GM fudges it should be honest fudging (I.e. the GM should tell the players they fudged: that way the players have some but in to whether it was a good idea). I also let dice fall where they may, so fudging isn’t something that comes up (the only way I would use it is as a corrective when the system is breaking down in a funky way and I can’t honestly recall when I have ever done that)
 

The person whose rhetoric you are defending explicitly stated, "constraints are good". Exact words. Are you willing to disagree with that statement?

“Rhetoric”?

Do you really disagree that constraints are necessary?


It seems impossible to have a casual conversation around here about game design.

Considering this thread does not appear to be a casual conversation, and considering that you continue to contribute to it, mostly with confrontational posts, I’d consider the idea that maybe you’re not really looking for casual conversation about gaming?

Who here has claimed that traditional play is the only gaming worthy of the name?

It’s presented as the default assumption and the “baseline” where conversation must begin. It’s annoying.

It’d almost be refreshing if people came right out and said it instead of passive aggressively pointing out how a game doesn’t match the baseline, but no no of course there’s nothing wrong with that!
 

When I talk about normative standards of discussion I'm not talking about judgement. I'm talking about erasure when it comes to broad discussion of roleplaying games (on this site). It's about the normative standards of play being assumed to be worthy of respect while other ways of playing roleplaying games are assumed to be less worthy and must justify themselves against that normative standard instead of being treated as just a different way to play.

It's especially frustrating to deal with this from people I have been discussing this sort of stuff with for decades on this site. One would think the familiarity would lead people to not treat how we play as this like weird, strange thing that does not get to be included when addressing roleplaying games more broadly, especially contextually when discussing them with us.

This is also fairly localized to this particular site. Other online spaces where roleplaying games are discussed seem to be a lot more welcoming to the diversity of play.
I get where you're coming from. But this cuts both ways.

I’ve spent years promoting Living World sandbox campaigns using classic editions that are often treated as broken or obsolete unless I write a master’s thesis justifying every part of the system. When I explain how I track faction timelines, simulate ongoing events, or let players miss content entirely because of timing or travel choices, I get the same "this is alien" reaction you're describing.

So if you feel player-first, fiction-first, or narrative-first RPGs are marginalized, I get it, but don’t assume the other side has it easy. I’ve had people dismiss it as "not real gameplay" or that it’s just fiat with extra steps.

My advice? Don’t fixate on what you’re not. That leads to creative dead ends where you burn all your energy defending your corner instead of building something interesting. Focus on what you are doing that works, and let others do the same without making it a contest over who deserves to be at the table.
 

Don't want to play them? Cool.
Don't want them to exist when so many games require a set of play-style that is similar to yours? Not so cool.
You mean like when @TwoSix stated that perception skills shouldn't exist (which would, at best, fundamentally alter several RPGs, including the most successful one to date) because they dislike simulationism?
Noticing stuff, as a separate mechanic, shouldn't be in any game.
I'm not saying there needs to be resources to invest in such things, more that everyone fails to notice stuff on a fairly regular basis and why should the characters be any different?
Because I don’t like simulationism.

Because that's the only example I've seen in this thread of what you're talking about. @Micah Sweet has been pretty darn consistent in stating that they have no interested in Narrativist games, but has no problem with them existing for those who do.
 

You mean like when @TwoSix stated that perception skills shouldn't exist (which would, at best, fundamentally alter several RPGs, including the most successful one to date) because they dislike simulationism?
Sure, and I stand by that, as someone who currently runs 5e more than any other system. Perception skills cause issues in play as opposed to simply attempting to be as clear as possible to give the players gameable information.

I think those skills continue to exist because of desires for "character modeling via character-creation investment", which I think is a consideration that is too heavily weighted in a lot of modern game design. That's not a "I don't like simulationism" critique of play aesthetics; that's my own personalized viewpoint of something I think would improve game design. And that is also, of course, a subjective opinion.

Edit: I also can't follow your links, because you're using the "10 posts per page" setting like some kind of savage. :)
 

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