D&D General Hit Points are a great mechanic

[EzekielRaiden]

In what way do healing surges represent "wounds"? There's no impairment, and they go away in two days at the absolute maximum.

Consider, for example, that you can lose them by failing skill checks (e.g. in Dark Sun, failing Endurance checks to survive in the desert). And if you run out of them, you functionally can't be healed anymore. So, as I said, a soft, no-penalties wounds system. It's not a death spiral wounds system, but it does represent dwindling resources and escalating danger by going back into combat when you're low/out.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, probably. But I don't think it would be too bad, if there was just one such "combo counter" to track. A lot of classes already require tracking several resources.

I have more faith in a player's ability to handle complexity than your average game designer, IME.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Related to combo points, in an amazing boardgame Yomi, there's a combo system where moves link into each other (they are labeled as A, B, C etc) and there are also Linkers and Enders that link from anything. So you can go like A-B-C-D-E, or A-Linker-D-E, or A-B-Linker or any of different combinations.

I kind of wish RPGs were less resistant to cards or other bespoke doodads, that'd open up a lot of interesting design space, I think

To me all that stuff does is drive up the cost of the product for not enough benefit. Books (physical or pdf), paper, pencils, and dice cover me just fine. Maybe a deck of cards if I'm playing Deadlands. Everything else IMO should be optional and extra from a game perspective and from a product perspective.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Consider, for example, that you can lose them by failing skill checks (e.g. in Dark Sun, failing Endurance checks to survive in the desert). And if you run out of them, you functionally can't be healed anymore. So, as I said, a soft, no-penalties wounds system. It's not a death spiral wounds system, but it does represent dwindling resources and escalating danger by going back into combat when you're low/out.

I have a very hard time seeing a soft, no penalties wound system as a wound system at all, but to each their own. The super-fast healing time was another reason I bounced off 4e personally.

 

[loverdrive]

To me all that stuff does is drive up the cost of the product for not enough benefit. Books (physical or pdf), paper, pencils, and dice cover me just fine. Maybe a deck of cards if I'm playing Deadlands. Everything else IMO should be optional and extra from a game perspective and from a product perspective.

Sure, but even putting RPGs aside, there are a lot of games that can be played with just a regular french deck of playing cards. Should we limit all tabletop design to them?

From the practical user experience perspective, a well-desifned character sheet can make tracking stuff easier, and, similarly, bespoke doodads can help with that too.

Like, imagine if each player had a big tablet in front of them, and put big visible red cards on top of "wound slots". That'd eliminate my complaints about wound system — that it's hard to keep track of them, because they are hidden on a character sheet that I just can't see from GM seat — by making it very transparent what wounds who sustained.

 

[kermit4karate]

The thing about this discussion and HP in D&D is... It's a nothingburger to fix.

HP remains a historically effective, balanced mechanic. It's not as though more complex calculations and tables to apply the concept of damage differently don't introduce more complexity, and complexity is the killer of pace. It destroys immersion. It destroys flow.

So even though I add a house rule to rolls for damage (the aforementioned max die rolled = roll die again + add to total), that's as far as I'll go.

HP is a fantastic mechanism, IMO. Incredibly simple and fast to roleplay. The most significant issue with it, IMO, is when it eliminates player fear and uncertainty -- the threat of death -- because there is no drama without tension.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, but even putting RPGs aside, there are a lot of games that can be played with just a regular french deck of playing cards. Should we limit all tabletop design to them?

From the practical user experience perspective, a well-desifned character sheet can make tracking stuff easier, and, similarly, bespoke doodads can help with that too.

Like, imagine if each player had a big tablet in front of them, and put big visible red cards on top of "wound slots". That'd eliminate my complaints about wound system — that it's hard to keep track of them, because they are hidden on a character sheet that I just can't see from GM seat — by making it very transparent what wounds who sustained.

By all means, sell whatever you want. But if I have to buy such things to play your RPG I will be less inclined to get started. I don't personally want that stuff to be a non-optional purchase. I stopped buying WHFR at the 3rd edition because the system changed to add a bunch of required bling. In the previous two editions it was just books and dice.

 

[kermit4karate]

Sure, but even putting RPGs aside, there are a lot of games that can be played with just a regular french deck of playing cards. Should we limit all tabletop design to them?

From the practical user experience perspective, a well-desifned character sheet can make tracking stuff easier, and, similarly, bespoke doodads can help with that too.

Like, imagine if each player had a big tablet in front of them, and put big visible red cards on top of "wound slots". That'd eliminate my complaints about wound system — that it's hard to keep track of them, because they are hidden on a character sheet that I just can't see from GM seat — by making it very transparent what wounds who sustained.

Not for me. I don't want any more accoutrements and accessories. I like to keep my boardgames and my TTRPGs separate. TTRPGs for me should be entirely playable without any additional accessories (save dice...or a dice app on my phone). Just personal preference.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The thing about this discussion and HP in D&D is... It's a nothingburger to fix.

HP remains a historically effective, balanced mechanic. It's not as though more complex calculations and tables to apply the concept of damage differently don't introduce more complexity, and complexity is the killer of pace. It destroys immersion. It destroys flow.

So even though I add a house rule to rolls for damage (the aforementioned max die rolled = roll die again + add to total), that's as far as I'll go.

HP is a fantastic mechanism, IMO. Incredibly simple and fast to roleplay. The most significant issue with it, IMO, is when it eliminates player fear and uncertainty -- the threat of death -- because there is no drama without tension.

Complexity may destroy your immersion, but not everyone's (certainly not mine), so that's not a fair statement to make as a generalization. For me complexity allows you to model something more accurately, and to a point that enhances my immersion.

Now, eliminating perfectly logical sources of fear and uncertainty because of how the mechanics work? That to me destroys immersion.

 

[kermit4karate]

Complexity may destroy your immersion, but not everyone's (certainly not mine), so that's not a fair statement to make as a generalization. For me complexity allows you to model something more accurately, and to a point that enhances my immersion.

Now, eliminating perfectly logical sources of fear and uncertainty because of how the mechanics work? That to me destroys immersion.

I actually still disagree. I don't believe that intentionally (because we're doing it like a director yells "cut!") slowing the pace for technical reasons ever aids immersion.

Slowing the pace of the storytelling, like how a slow-burn dialogue-heavy thriller does it, isn't the same as saying, "Hold on, gang, while I pull out my trusty Slashing Wounds Table!" -- there's nothing immersive within the storytelling about that. It may be mechanically interesting and amusing as the group pauses to wait and see, but it has little to do with actual roleplay. That's a boardgame mechanic, IMO.

Maybe it's just a personal preference thing, but I loathe things that force me or my players to stop painting word pictures to refer to a book to determine an outcome. Some of that is inherently necessary, but it's a truly slippery slope. Rules are both a blessing and a curse to roleplaying.