D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[mamba]

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel that way? Honestly curious

it’s the slight changes that push it over the line for me, spectral wings with no downsides, respeccing things on a long rest so you never have to live with a decision that may not be optimal in a given situation, stuff like that. I also am no fan of the overall power level, but there 5e was not far behind either. The aggregate made me not like 2024. 2014 was still tolerable even though it admittedly is not that far behind. 2024 clearly moved in the wrong direction across the board, relative to what I am looking for

 

[Charlaquin]

it’s the slight changes that push it over the line for me, spectral wings with no downsides, respeccing things on a long rest so you never have to live with a decision that may not be optimal in a given situation, stuff like that. I also am no fan of the overall power level, but there 5e was not far behind either. The aggregate made me not like 2024. 2014 was still tolerable even though it admittedly is not that far behind. 2024 clearly moved in the wrong direction across the board, relative to what I am looking for

This comes across as a much more reasonable version of the stance Keith expressed. Like, yeah, while the differences are minor, they do certainly exist, and I can totally see that subtle shift being enough to cross the line into no longer being what you’re looking for. It’s the “5e 2014 allowed for any style of play from grim and gritty to epic fantasy and everything in-between, but 2024 is pure epic fantasy and also it’s impossible to challenge PCs anymore!” that seems overdramatic. Like, nah, the difference in both degree of fantasy and power level are small. They were just enough to barely cross the line from within your range of preferences to outside of it. Which, to be clear, is perfectly fine.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Just out of curiosity, why do you feel that way? Honestly curious

Both sets of 5e rules are much more superhero/epic fantasy than nitty gritty low fantasy, but I would agree that 2014 rules were more possible to run low powered characters.

2014 rules had a such wide range of unbalanced character power options, where the optimized 2014 PCs would blow away optimized 2024 PCs, but if a DM attempted to ban a relatively short list of overpowered features (or if the players didn't know how or desire to build powerful characters) you could wind up with PCs weak enough to run a low fantasy campaign fairly easily.

In 2024 rules, everything is more closely balanced with the power ceiling nerfed but the floor drastically raised. There's no short list of overpowered features that one could ban and end up with weak PCs, and even a brand new player is going to build a decent character by just blindly picking features that sound cool. This is an awesome improvement if you ask me but I would agree that you're more locked into epic fantasy with 2024 rules than before.

 

[Nightfly]

Whether you agree with Keith or not, I think he makes some objectively good points. Maybe I'd even say undeniable points. Now that he's pointed it out, I too am bothered that the Warrior Commander has Str 21, Dex 20, and Con 18. That's a statline suitable for Conan the Barbarian, not a nameless DC 10 rando.

I'm saying that as someone who likes 2024e as a whole, and likes the new MM enough to use the monsters in his otherwise 2014 game. That can be true and I can be troubled by the way the stats have gone off the rails. I'm certainly not ready to chuck the new edition the way Keith might be; I love the new monk too much to do that. But one can appreciate what the new edition fixed and improved while still regretting the things that got worse.

 

[Minigiant]

it’s the slight changes that push it over the line for me, spectral wings with no downsides, respeccing things on a long rest so you never have to live with a decision that may not be optimal in a given situation, stuff like that. I also am no fan of the overall power level, but there 5e was not far behind either. The aggregate made me not like 2024. 2014 was still tolerable even though it admittedly is not that far behind. 2024 clearly moved in the wrong direction across the board, relative to what I am looking for

1. spirit animal companions
2. spectral wings with no downsides,
3. respeccing things on a long rest
4. subclasses at level 3

Those are all due to DMs who believe in the direct mechanical simulation and being inflexible and unwavering and uncompromising in helping players not deal with times the narrative forces the gameplaythat it becomes unwieldy and unfun

Just let the pay 5 go to the blacksmith to cut wingslits in the armor. Or have the magical resizing magic armor creat wing slits.

"But Minigiant. DMs are not so uncompromising"

Favored Enemy
The "problem" that only exists because many DMs are unwavering in their simulation of their settings.

 

[Minigiant]

Whether you agree with Keith or not, I think he makes some objectively good points. Maybe I'd even say undeniable points. Now that he's pointed it out, I too am bothered that the Warrior Commander has Str 21, Dex 20, and Con 18. That's a statline suitable for Conan the Barbarian, not a nameless DC 10 rando

Ironically due to 10 HD, a guard Captain really should have a proficiency bonus of +4 not +2. So if you increase the proficiency bonus and decrease its strength down to 14 you pretty much have the same attack bonus which will be required for its challenge.

The problem is saving throws as the other topic with Mike Mearls states.

Ever since 3rd edition wears saving throws became linked with ability scores monsters need ridiculously high ability scores to not be instantly vaporized or mind-controlled by magic spells.

If there's anything formulaic that I might advocate for a 6th edition is for saving throws to not be linked to ability scores because ability scores are two variable for that to work in the math.

 

[Sorinth]

Whether you agree with Keith or not, I think he makes some objectively good points. Maybe I'd even say undeniable points. Now that he's pointed it out, I too am bothered that the Warrior Commander has Str 21, Dex 20, and Con 18. That's a statline suitable for Conan the Barbarian, not a nameless DC 10 rando.

I'm saying that as someone who likes 2024e as a whole, and likes the new MM enough to use the monsters in his otherwise 2014 game. That can be true and I can be troubled by the way the stats have gone off the rails. I'm certainly not ready to chuck the new edition the way Keith might be; I love the new monk too much to do that. But one can appreciate what the new edition fixed and improved while still regretting the things that got worse.

Doesn't the MM sort of imply that Minsc, Hero of Baldur's Gate is a Warrior Commander? So sure it's a great stat line, but like maybe the CR 10 Warrior Commander isn't supposed to be some rando, it's supposed to represents the big warrior hero's like Minsc or Conan.

They are only nameless because the DM is the one who should be supplying the name, history, etc...

 

[mamba]

1. spirit animal companions
2. spectral wings with no downsides,
3. respeccing things on a long rest
4. subclasses at level 3

Those are all due to DMs who believe in the direct mechanical simulation and being inflexible and unwavering and uncompromising in helping players not deal with times the narrative forces the gameplaythat it becomes unwieldy and unfun

maybe, but those same DMs simply will not use 2024 at all, so not sure anything was gained by that. Heck, I do not consider myself uncompromising and I decided to not use it.. not really sure how the subclasses at level 3 fit into this list, to me they are unrelated and supposed to prevent too powerful one-level dips

 

[Distracted DM]

Doesn't the MM sort of imply that Minsc, Hero of Baldur's Gate is a Warrior Commander? So sure it's a great stat line, but like maybe the CR 10 Warrior Commander isn't supposed to be some rando, it's supposed to represents the big warrior hero's like Minsc or Conan.

They are only nameless because the DM is the one who should be supplying the name, history, etc...

Minsc from Heroes of Baldurs Gate, released 2019

Spoiler

Warrior Commander, using Minsc's quote (yes I'd agree with the above that that suggests they're saying Minsc could be represented by Warrior Commander).

Spoiler

The HoBG statline is obviously more representative of the character in the Baldurs Gate series. They made him a combo fighter/berserker, and slapped survival on there cuz I guess technically he was a ranger in 2e :'D his stats are more in line with the classic character. Brute gives him 3d6 on two greatsword attacks.

The Warrior Commander is obviously 3 CR higher, all its stats are cranked up, 3 attacks, 4d6 on three greatsword attack, etc.

One note, I wouldn't equate Minsc and Conan on power levels... Mostly because Minsc was always a part of a big party, whereas at best Conan had some sidekicks and/or lackeys/soldiers, but Conan had much bigger plot power than Minsc... at least, from my recollection. Eh, then again Minsc was part of the party that went into Throne of Bhaal so... eh.

 

[Reynard]

This thread is hilarious.

I remember when "The monsters know what they are doing" was a darling.

But Oops! The new WotC books aren't beloved, so this person must be a hater!

It might just be that D&D 2024 kind of sucks. Lots of people seem to feel that way. No one bats a thousand. Maybe stop white knighting the massive corporation and actually listen to people you previously agreed with.