D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

Good job passing the "tell me you haven't read the thread without telling me you haven't read the thread" challenge.
I run a weekly D&D 2024 game and EVRY SESSION players find things about it that were bad choices by the design team, that make the game worse.

So you can tell me that I don't know what I am talking about, but my very real, active game group thinks it is a worse edition of 5E. But, sure, go ahead and tell us how we are wrong.
 

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If the Guard Captain having 18 strength annoys you then that shows that you care more about how the captain looks then how it functions. The 18th strength along with the +2 proficiency bonus is there in order to get the +6 attack. If you reduce the 18 down to 12, you have to either create another three points of bonus that is unexplained or figure out a way to explain three more points of bonus.

What? No, the problem is there is a set of guidelines for what "CR4" means (+6 attack, 70ish hp, 30ish dam/rnd) but that the guidelines ALSO have a formula (attack=pb+attribute) while limiting the PB to +2.

Why? Why keep that formula? We have ditched any relationship between weapons and damage (2d10 for a longsword) and there's zero connection between HD and PB, so why is this part a sacred cow? Why is the weapon in this NPCs hands doing more on average that the max possible damage from a PC something you can gloss over but, by golly, a proficiency bonus of +3 or +4 would totally break versimilitude?

If I were making a CR4 guard captain by the guidelines, why not +6 attack (str16/pb+3) using longsword d8+5 (str+2 duelist if it matters, which it shouldn't) with 3x attacks. That's essentially the same thing mathematically but it it is also much closer to what a PC could look like and it means the NPC is based on experience rather than raw physical prowess, which is in line with a captain.
 

I run a weekly D&D 2024 game and EVRY SESSION players find things about it that were bad choices by the design team, that make the game worse.

So you can tell me that I don't know what I am talking about, but my very real, active game group thinks it is a worse edition of 5E. But, sure, go ahead and tell us how we are wrong.
Your opinions on 5e 2024 aren’t right or wrong, they’re your opinions. However, your post suggesting that people are calling Keith a hater because he has critiques of 2024 and defending Wizards of the Coast is not consistent with anything that has been said in this thread, which makes it look like you didn’t read the thread at all.
 



WOW. The difference between these two statblocks is really striking. Never mind how much better the physical stats are for the Warrior Commander, Minsc 2014 has mental stats of 8, 6, and 10; Warrior Commander 2024 has 14, 16, and 14. I realize the latter's CR is three more, but come on. He's basically Captain America -- very literally superhuman.


I hear you, but a CR 10 enemy is not going to be the BBEG of any campaign, unless it's a really short campaign. I'm fine with legendary humanoids having stats of 20+, but I'm still not convinced the Warrior Commander is supposed to be legendary. King of the Dwarves having a STR higher than the PCs can obtain without a boon or relic? Sure. But this dude with less than half the CR of an ancient dragon? That feels really weird to me.

Maybe it's a necessary evil in order make this NPC sturdy enough to make saving throws, as others in this thread have suggested. That's an excellent point. But even a necessary evil is still an evil.
Sorry...what's the "evil" here?

I honestly don't get it. It's just a stat block for a fairly tough humanoid opponent. Lots of scenarios can use that, and it saves me creating an NPC (which I probably will still do if it's a vital enough character, but if it's just some opponent...nah).

Who cares what the numbers are? The point is the challenge facing the players. The numbers are just there to facilitate the story of fantasy adventure. They don't mean anything in themselves. The DM can describe that guy how they want. If the high strength bugs you, just describe him as really skilled with his sword, or whatever. The point is that he's a challenge of a certain magnitude.
 

An Ennie-award winning blog that published an Ennie-award winning supplement for 5e D&D should perhaps be taken seriously when they say why they won't be switching to the 2024 edition of the game, because it no longer feels like D&D they are interested in in any way. The post author even lays our how 5e used to be a big tent everyone could find room in, but the new edition is so narrow it excludes them. People not being excluded in the new edition saying "nothing changed for me so nothing changed for you" doesn't really add anything.
Sure, his opinion is valid, but the points he raises seem like personal beefs rather than design flaws. Most of the stuff he doesn't like, I do, but then I agreed on a few points as well. I liked reading it because I like seeing different points of view, but there were no revelatory points being made. Mostly, it reads like a good forum post.

So I take it seriously in the sense that he's entitled to his opinion and is a good writer, but...person wanting to stick with an older version of something that they're used to isn't really breaking news.
 


If it was a Str of 20 would everything about this stat block be perfectly fine and you'd have no problems? If yes then I feel this is making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Of course 20 vs. 21 wouldn't make it "perfectly fine" for me. But I admit that the 21 does annoy me, meaningless though it might be. Maybe because it's meaningless -- they can't have made this NPC superhuman for gameplay purposes, because it barely affects gameplay. So then why is this dude theoretically the strongest humanoid on the planet? Isn't that a least a smidgen weird?

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill anyway, because I've always believed gameplay beats realism every day of the week, so maybe this barely matters. But that doesn't mean realism means literally nothing and should be completely ignored. Some people in this thread are acting like Keith has no valid point at all, that's he's just a "hater", but I think he undeniably is onto something. Maybe it's a major objection or maybe it's a minor one, but either way it's a valid enough point that it shouldn't just be ignored.

Most Campaigns end at around Level 10 or 11, if not earlier. So CR 10 is fairly top of the line. There is no stat block for a "King of the Dwarves"...and in fact the Warrior Commander would be an excellent fit for a Dwarven King.
CR10 is barely a speedbump for an adult dragon, much less an ancient wyrm. Whether that's fitting or not depends on how you imagine a dwarven king, I guess. When I hear "King of the Dwarves", I think of a legendary figure like "The Dwarf King" of 13th Age who is a literal icon. I very much assume that dragons would flee from him, not the other way around. Obviously another person's imagination may vary on this topic, which is fine, but to me "warrior commander" feels more like a captain of the guard, not legendary monarch-champion. If the guard is a superhero, how high do the stats have to be for my vision of the Dwarf King? Does he need a STR of 30? If he does, is this game still on the rails, or are we playing Calvinball?

What you have a problem with is not this individual NPC’s stats. What you have a problem with is the entire concept of a generic NPC being CR10.
You might be right. That kind of thing never sat well with me in 4e, and I really liked 4e. I was always a little uncomfortable that some 4e orcs were suitable foes for a 1st level party while other orcs -- again, not legendary figures, just typical nameless grunts and guards -- could easily slaughter that entire party by themselves. However, at least there were obvious benefits to that lack of realism and scale. For example, combats against a solo monster worked much, much better in 4e than in any flavor of 5e, and balancing in general was solid and easy. That being so, I accepted the peculiarity with levels and stats as the price we pay and let it slide. I can still let that kind of thing slide in 5.24 if I must, but I'm not clear what benefit we're getting from the superhuman Warrior Commander that justifies throwing the 3-18 stat scale out the window.
 


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