D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

he said nothing even remotely like that… talk about exaggerating things…
Uh....sure.

"But it was clear from the moment the 5E24 Player’s Handbook dropped that D&D was going all in on wild high fantasy, to the exclusion of other styles, and also that it had chosen to fully indulge a decade’s worth of munchkin demands for MOAR POWER!"

"But when I held the PH24 in my hands and paged through it, the realization came over me that PCs don’t need the help anymore. They’ve been failure-proofed. There’s almost no error a player can make, at this point, that will end their character’s adventuring career prematurely—not unless their DM goes full adversarial, which I don’t condone."

"There’s a palpable change in design approach between 5E14 and 5E24. In 5E14, it seems to me, the designers began with a narrative in mind, then thought about how best to implement that narrative mechanically. The sense I get from 5E24, on the other hand, is that the designers began with mechanics they wanted to implement, then came up with narratives to rationalize the mechanics."

"(The ludicrous overuse of the adjective “spectral” to describe how PCs’ abilities manifest, combined with the fact that you can undo so many decisions you regret having made with just a good night’s sleep, calls to mind a line from the song “Type” by Living Colour: “Everything is possible, and nothing is real.”)"

"Now, I happen to think that the MM25 is probably the best of the three revised core books of D&D. All three are flawed, but the MM25 is the one whose strengths most outweigh its flaws."

"What are we even doing here? These are clearly instances in which “line go up” took precedence over maintaining internal logical consistency. And I’ve made a career out of creating, and helping others create, imaginary worlds that come alive because they’re internally consistent."
 

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NGL, given how precious little actually differs between 5.0 and 5.5e, this reads to me like the way Brennan Lee Mulligan (claims that) his old philosophy professor described how beliefs work: "Humans have feelings and then construct philosophical frameworks to support them and justify them."
Little differences in the rule set can lead to huge differences in play.

That said, I think there are pretty massive differences between the 2014 and 2024 rules. From the near-universal power creep to the reduction of race to humans with funny foreheads to the ubiquity of teleport and temp hp abilities, 2024 is a very different beast.
 

Ammann might not have said those exact words, but they seem to be implied in his original post with language like, "MOAR POWER," "ludicrous overuse," and "All three [books] are flawed." And plenty of people in this thread have been happy to chime in about 5e.2024's purported "design flaws," using Ammann's points as evidence.

All of these threads come down to the same basic points, again and again:

1. Person doesn't like 5e.2024 because of [x, y, z] (spawns some minor disagreement, usually suggestions to find a game that suits you better)
2. Because of that, 5e.2024 is poorly designed (20+ page thread)
3. Things were better in my day, when players weren’t so coddled and we had to fight trolls just to get to school each day, uphill both ways.
 

Little differences in the rule set can lead to huge differences in play.

That said, I think there are pretty massive differences between the 2014 and 2024 rules. From the near-universal power creep to the reduction of race to humans with funny foreheads to the ubiquity of teleport and temp hp abilities, 2024 is a very different beast.
IMO It's more like one is a Bengal Tiger while the other is a Sumatran Tiger.
 

Little differences in the rule set can lead to huge differences in play.

That said, I think there are pretty massive differences between the 2014 and 2024 rules. From the near-universal power creep to the reduction of race to humans with funny foreheads to the ubiquity of teleport and temp hp abilities, 2024 is a very different beast.
Power creep is not a massive difference, by definition. Like...we call it power "creep" because it's a slow process of small steps. And the power creep is pretty damned small....and primarily centered on classes that most folks agree were clearly behind the curve relative to other classes. Like Sorcerer, Warlock, Monk, and Ranger. Or subclasses that were widely recognized as deeply flawed, like Beast Master and Battlerager.

Race in 5e has always been, as you so pejoratively put it, "humans with funny foreheads". Or at least that's the complaint I've been hearing since before 2014. I, personally, think that what this actually shows is that GMs don't need statblocks that differ because 95%+ of their NPCs aren't actually different on the basis of their physiology. They might have a different silly voice, or pepper in some phrases or mannerisms, but in terms of what they actually do, think, feel, want, and say? Almost all are more or less human, because human GMs aren't exactly prone to xenofictional prose authorship.

Teleport effects have always been common, so I've no idea what you're talking about there? Misty step isn't new to 5.5e, and one subclass getting to use it a bit more often does not seem on the level you've described.

Temp HP sources? Really? That's...I don't even know what to say. 5e has had plenty of sources. Celestial Warlock is a 5.0 subclass. The Chef feat was added in Tasha's. False life and several other THP-granting spells have been present since 2014. Multiple 5.0 Barbarian subclasses offer THP--including options for the Storm Herald that hand those THP out to allies. Heck, I can even tell you one readily-accessible and desirable source that had them removed in 5.5e, that being enhance ability. It no longer has any of the quirky stat-specific effects, which I was disappointed by. (Doubly so since that's one of the rare places where spells being more open-ended is generally quite fine, as this is just magic which gives someone more ability to do what they already do, and thus mostly not as useful to the spellcaster herself.)

You are, of course, 100% correct that the amount of text changed by something does not indicate how much of the gameplay is affected. But not one of the things you've listed here is having massive, whole-game-affecting changes. Not even the THP one, though I do agree that THP are slightly more accessible now, that's not radically changing player tactics. (Especially since different sources of THP still don't stack, so getting 5 points from three different sources is meaningless unless you're actually chewing through those THP...which if you are, they'd just get healed post-combat anyway!)

And to be clear, I really do agree with you that a "small" textual change can be a huge gameplay change. E.g., if you add or remove a "not" from a sentence, that can radically change play. "A queen can move to any laterally or diagonally adjacent square, and cannot continue" becomes "A queen can move to any laterally or diagonally adjacent square, and can continue", which is what makes the modern game of "chess" as we understand it. Likewise, changing the base value of one healing surge in 4e from 1/4 of HP to, say, 1/2 or 1/8, would dramatically change the game despite technically only changing one number--and I don't think either one would actually produce a better game. I just don't think any of the changes you've described are huge gameplay changes.
 

Wow, I did not know that. I've only had one 5e24 PC that got that high and he went for something else (everyone else in that game used A5E characters).

Though I think Epic Boons are putting a PC near demigod status, so I don't know if I'd say breaking the 20 stat-cap is WELL within human bounds... ofc belts of giant strength are a thing, but I think they originally shied away from letting PCs up their mental stats that high to stay away from those control spells' DCs getting nutso... nah that's a tangent over to well-tread ground 🤣

I think we're also used to stat ranges meaning something in the setting, the context of the world, rather than just game numbers to affect to-hits, DCs, damage, etc. 8-10 is average, a professional soldier might have a 15 strength, an 18 int means super-duper smart, 19 is ogre-strength, etc.
So there's some level of cognitive dissonance with some of this stuff for certain folk (including myself).
Well said.

I consider 20+ to be getting in demi-go range (or supernatural if you will).
 

"But it was clear from the moment the 5E24 Player’s Handbook dropped that D&D was going all in on wild high fantasy, to the exclusion of other styles, and also that it had chosen to fully indulge a decade’s worth of munchkin demands for MOAR POWER!"
yes, the PHB made that pretty clear, doesn’t mean inherently bad design though. Lean towards high fantasy and away from low is not equivalent to bad design.

It can be good or bad design completely independently from whether it is low or high fantasy.

Obviously he is not happy with the direction, but that is not the same as saying it is badly designed
 

in that case a lot of people who liked 5e should not like 5.5, so I guess the evidence is not in your favor
Liking something doesn’t mean you won’t like a change to it… the more you like something the less likely you are to enjoy any changes to it.

Someone who loves something is less likely (not impossible) to appreciate changes to that thing than someone whom merely enjoys it or doesn’t like it all in the first place.

I enjoy D&D have no issues moving from edition to edition. I’m not special in that regard many others are the same. But there is also lots of people that loved one edition (usually the first they played) that are never able to get behind a new edition and invariably talk about how the changes ruined everything about the game.
 

DMs who feel their players are too powerful seek to increase the challenge of the game in two ways: harder monsters and fights and curtailing PC power via restrictions. Neither is bad in a void, but DMs can easily fall victim to either creating encounters that are death traps for anything but the most optimized players (an issue that Paizo frequently has in PF APs) or banning or crippling options (and not the obvious ones like silvery barbs or Twilight cleric). The worst is when both happen simultaneously and the DM creates scenarios where the PCs are fighting one hand tied behind their backs against Foes built to handle fully optimized characters which only leads players to find even more broken combos to survive which creates more bans and more challenge pushing.

Hence the arms race.
Oh, I can see that. I see the game as intended to be challenging and don’t love the player-side optimization arms race, so I’m disinclined to like the power increase (again, players outnumber DMs so they tend to see more power increase aside from the DM tool “rocks fall everyone dies”). I thought I’d like Pathfinder 2e but really didn’t enjoy the teamwork-optimization needed in order for the players to win combats.
 

yes, the PHB made that pretty clear, doesn’t mean inherently bad design though. Lean towards high fantasy and away from low is not equivalent to bad design.

It can be good or bad design completely independently from whether it is low or high fantasy.

Obviously he is not happy with the direction, but that is not the same as saying it is badly designed
It's very clearly presented as a "these changes are bad and wrong". If you don't see that in the word choice and such, I'm not sure what I can tell you.
 

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