D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[Parmandur]

I can see the benefits too, a generic Rend lets you describe the fiction however you want, so is more flexible there, but at the price of a loss of detail.

Just to zero in on this, I think this helps us zero in on what the designers are goijg for: with Claw and Bite, you had basically better and a worse option, which meant a DM playing optimally will only ever choose the one, while one who doesn't realize what is optimal has a trap option they might choose for flavor. In 2025, they were looking in ulltilitsrian terms to eliminate trap options, so DMs could predict how a Monster stat block will perform without needing system mastery, without taking away flavor options. Rend means there is only the one choice. The optimal choice, while allowing a DM to flavor it how they desire.

The "detail" missed from 2014 was...really still just an abstraction, an illusion. Now it's tnis just an abstraction streamlined to be DM friendly and allow more freedom.

 

[Xenolith234]

No its not. D&D is a blend of sword & sorcery, high fantasy, mythology and smear of horror. Its not generic fantasy. It quite frankly sucks out for anything that isn't its particular blend of fantasy. The best you can do is overlay a skin emphasizing one aspect of it (which is what settings like DS, RL, or Eberron do). In that regard, its not much different that Shadowrun, save that Shadowrun doesn't waste time trying to support a dozen different overlays.

Yeah, and there's the secret: those rules sucked. Hard. Every 2e setting's custom rules were designed to punish players. Every. One. They contort D&D into unnatural shapes because D&D isn't designed for that level of genre emulation. So each setting kept forcing more and more restrictions on players, the rules, and the game itself until it was an ungodly mess of contradictions, buried rules in multiple books, and incompatible options.

It took playing those 2e settings in more modern rulesets (3e and on) to make me realize how much 2e's desire to contort D&D made them LESS fun, not more.

No, 3pp built their own RPGs and called them D&D because that name sells. Much like how every RPG company under the sun had a d20 variant of their system in during the d20 glut (CoC d20, WoD d20, etc).

I reject the Xeroxifaction of D&D. Adventures in Middle Earth is not D&D. Pathfinder is not D&D. Doctors and Daleks is not D&D. Only Dungeons & Dragons is D&D. Its a complete game with its own implied setting and assumptions. The fact that the d20 system can be made into a variety of different games that came be compatible with each other is great, but that doesn't make them D&D. And it burns me that so many people insist on making D&D the generic term for any RPG where you roll a d20.

“Punish” = Restrict. It’s totally reasonable that each setting comes with its own set of restrictions to fit the fantasy. That just happens to be way more difficult with 2024 (and 5e as a whole, but moreso 2024 now due to player empowerment).

Each PC’s abilities are designed to punish DMs. Every. One. They contort D&D into unnatural shapes because D&D settings aren’t designed for that level of power. So each change kept forcing more and more power into PCs, the rules, and the game itself until it was an ungodly mess of buried subclasses and feats in multiple books that only served to continue the arms race on the player side, while enabling players to chafe against the slightest restriction by a setting or DM. Quote: “your DM will hate this”

 

[Minigiant]

I agree with the goal, just not the execution. If you can have two claw attacks or one bite, make sure they both hit their CR instead of one being clearly inferior and only there for flavor (like the dagger attack on a mage)

The problem apparently is that people got confused.

So they condensed attacks.

 

[mamba]

But dragons spit things, don't they? Isn't it kind of their thing? And spitting a ball of poisonous stuff is in fact kinda believable? Kinda physical, rather than magical? Some spiders and snakes do that in the real world!

it's the best explanation I came up with (outside of 'magic'), that it lobs a ball of poisonous spit to some place, but that does not require line of sight, you could hide behind a wall and the ball still hits you (ballistics).

 

[Arilyn]

agreed, it is as magical. They keep adding more effects that can only be explained by magic rather than anything that is distinctly for a specific creature. There is less and less creature behind the stat block and ever more just an amorphous blob of effects that can as well be a green dragon, a poison genie or whatever

Do green dragons not breathe poison gas anymore? Is it now a spell?

 

[mamba]

Just to zero in on this, I think this helps us zero in on what the designers are goijg for: with Claw and Bite, you had basically better and a worse option, which meant a DM playing optimally will only ever choose the one, while one who doesn't realize what is optimal has a trap option they might choose for flavor. In 2025, they were looking in ulltilitsrian terms to eliminate trap options

I am fine with eliminating trap options, but that is not what happened in this case, the 2014 stat block read

"Multiattack. The dragon can use its Frightful Presence. It then makes three attacks: one with its bite and two with its claws."

so in this case it was not a matter of the GM possibly choosing the inferior attack option. I do believe that widening the narrative or simply saving some space was the motivation here.

Rend means there is only the one choice. The optimal choice, while allowing a DM to flavor it how they desire.

The "detail" missed from 2014 was...really still just an abstraction, an illusion. Now it's tnis just an abstraction streamlined to be DM friendly and allow more freedom.

Sure, bite and claw are still somewhat of an abstraction, but Rend is a lot more of one. Does it streamline, does it offer more narrative freedom? Yes. Does it remove flavor, distinction and the feel of it being an actual creature rather than just a whirlwind that bumps stuff into you? Also yes.

I would have preferred if they leaned into differences between the different attacks more (while keeping / creating a balance between alternatives) rather than eliminating all distinctions and just having one mush effect no matter what happens in the narrative.

 

[mamba]

Do green dragons not breathe poison gas anymore? Is it now a spell?

They also still breath poison, in a cone. The Miasma is new and something they conjure up in a 30 foot radius, up to 90 feet away.

"Noxious Miasma. Constitution Saving Throw: DC 21, each creature in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point the dragon can see within 90 feet"

 

[Distracted DM]

I hadn’t read the blog before and am enjoying it so thanks for the reference in the first place. Even if it was for a sad reason.

Oh yeah, it's a good read. Applying logic and reason to give the statblocks life really was something special. "This is how the creature would act cuz of XYZ." What's funny is, some editions included that sort of info in their entries, how this monster reacts and fights.

 

[Clint_L]

Do green dragons not breathe poison gas anymore? Is it now a spell?

It's not a spell, no. It's the same as before, as far as I can tell. Example from Adult Green Dragon, MM2025, listed under Actions:

Poison Breath (Recharge 5–6). Constitution Saving Throw: DC 18, each creature in a 60-foot Cone. Failure: 56 (16d6) Poison damage. Success: Half damage.

 

[Distracted DM]

They also still breath poison, in a cone. The Miasma is new and something they conjure up in a 30 foot radius, up to 90 feet away.

"Noxious Miasma. Constitution Saving Throw: DC 21, each creature in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point the dragon can see within 90 feet"

It's almost like a 4e power entry, but without the flavor text to describe it:

Spoiler

Alright maybe a 4e PC power isn't the way to go here.

Here's the 4e green dragon:

Spoiler

Alright so the only thing 4e had going for it were the tags to help identify them, monster statblocks didn't have flavor text.
I'm still posting this cuz it's an interesting revisit of the past nostalgia, rose-colored glasses, all that.