D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[AlViking]

Well, I had carefully curated some quotes to respond to, but they were lost in an ooopsie on my part and I am not going to wade through 107 pages of content to find them again. Let's see if I can bulletpoint some of the salient thoughts.

First off, I am a 1e/2e grognard that came back a year ago after a zillion years away. I've said this elsewhere, but it bears saying again, as it's relevant.

1) In my view, 5e catered to a whole videogamey generation that couldn't handle their characters being squished dead. It does cater to munchkins. Just look at all the "this build is overpowered, here's how you can do it too" Youtube videos. None of them are about creating characters, they're about being unbeatable. This isn't new .... the only difference between the stuff encoded in the game and when I was a kid in high school is that the kids in high school had third-level paladins with Holy Avengers and Girdles of Giant Strength while wearing +5 plate. You're never going to avoid that mentality .... it's kinda human. But encoding it into the rules encourages the problem.

Some of us, including those who played from OD&D on, never cared much for high lethality games. That is vastly different from demanding we play a munchkin. Meanwhile the game is still as deadly as the group wants it to be.

2) looking through a lens of coming back to D&D after a gazillion years away, it's obvious that this has been the direction the game has taken. Every class has magic, humans are boring. There's eighty-seven playable races, sixty-zillion subclasses. It's gone too far.

Yeah, I limit races in my game for a reason but that's a me thing. Why do you care if someone else wants to play a game with a dozen different species? If you don't want spells you can still play most versions of fighters and rogues not to mention barbarians and monks. The 2024 revisions went out of their way to make martial types more competitive ... which people now complain about of course.

3) I saw one post that said it should take two sessions to get to third level. WTF? I've had a game running for almost a year now, 35 sessions. 1e/2e homebrew. Levels are 4,4, 3/3 3/3 and an npc 4. We're getting to the good stuff.

If I played almost every weekend for 10 hours straight I would still be sticking with slow progression. I don't. On the other hand I've played and run 5e games where it took several sessions to get to level 1, it was kind of like an extended session 0. Just depends on what the group enjoys.

4) The joy of the old school game is that your third-level rogue might very well die an hour into exploring wherever. Oh well. We always had backup characters, right? I remember introducing a dwarven fighter into a game ... I spent days curating the dude's background. Half an hour into the session, he was offed by a critical hit from a Piercer. Oh well. Next up. The current system makes it difficult to kill a PC.

You always had backup characters. Not everyone played like that. Most 1e and 2e games I played were not like that.

5) The whole CR thing is bunkum. It's a kludge because the system is now so broken that it's difficult to figure out how to challenge a PC party, especially with the extra actions, reactions, bonus actions and other stuff that's been added to make action economy more valuable.

Because it was so much better to have absolutely no clue about relative power of a monster? Just kind of look at it and guess? CR is far from perfect and it can't be because there's too much variation between groups but I find it a good starting point.

6) Not everything 5e did is trash. That's the thing about systems. I like how they have the skill system.

7) I am now a firm believer in point buy for stats. This seems to have been normalized. That's good.

The dude who wrote "the monsters know what they're doing" isn't wrong. There's a reason a whole bunch of us still tinker with homebrew alterations of the old systems. The old systems weren't perfect either, but they allow a grittier background.

No, he's not wrong. He's not right either. It's all about preferences and what you want out of the game. It always has been.

 

[AlViking]

Well, prove me wrong?

Prove what wrong? That you want to play a different style of game? Okay, you want to play a different style of game. Meanwhile dying was frequently just a player sitting out the game until the rest of the group could get back to town to raise dead. On the other hand I've had more than one of my characters die in 5e, death just tends to be a bit less random or "You just opened the wrong door with no clue that it would be particularly dangerous."

 

[billd91]

Well, prove me wrong?

You're the crank making the claim. That burden's on you.

 

[Moving Pictures]

Because it was so much better to have absolutely no clue about relative power of a monster? Just kind of look at it and guess? CR is far from perfect and it can't be because there's too much variation between groups but I find it a good starting point.

A GM who understands the mechanics of the game should have a very good idea of how strong a monster is.
I've seen several D&D YouTuber types express issues with using CR.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I prefer someone make the final call. I think it makes for a better game rather than the loudest player at the table shouting until they get their way. That it is a far cry from a maniacal power hungry overlord GM.

Why are the only options:

• GM is always right
• The loudest jerk wins

Why? You have just pushed the exact thing I mentioned earlier. The players cannot be trusted. The GM must be trusted.

 

[Azzy]

Well, prove me wrong?

You made a claim, you're the one who has to prove it. All you did with your post was come across like the proverbial old guy yelling at clouds. It's just tired.

 

[TiQuinn]

Well, prove me wrong?

It’s an opinion. There’s no proof necessary.

 

[Moving Pictures]

You made a claim, you're the one who has to prove it. All you did with your post was come across like the proverbial old guy yelling at clouds. It's just tired.

Oh, boy. That's a mature response.

 

[Remathilis]

Well, prove me wrong?

I'm too tired for this dance.

 

[Umbran]

You're the crank making the claim.

Mod Note:
You are correct, in that the burden of proof does lie with the person making the claim.

You are incorrect, in that the burden to not be a jerk about it lies with you.

So, please see to your burden going forward. Thanks.