D&D 5E (2024) This Feels Like 4E

[tetrasodium]

I wasn’t aware that terrain, movement and positioning had been absent from any edition of the game.

Also, BG3.

3.x and 2e∆ versions of that were passive.it happen because of where everyone was in relation to each other how they were facing and sometimes because the one taking turn was about to do something that gave one of the others a chance to be sticky with an AoO due to movement or spellcasting.. god wizard-esq control/debuff spells might add some creature & #x# zone specific stuff, but intended to be stuff that lasted most of the combat and was fairly static

The 4e versions were heavily leaning on short lived/mobile & often highly localized effects that pop in about of being round by round. The 5e version is almost exclusively leaning on it due to efforts to streamline and simplify awAy the tactical grid elements to specific powers actions or entirely.

A computer can easily track that kind of chaos. Human's forget and argue over "wait a minute, I put a miniature sun on that one so xyz should have modified that thing that just happened. Then you have the 3 stooges style square dancing with spirit guardians and such

∆ most of it was added later in player options: combat & tactics.

 

[tetrasodium]

Did you consider that you might be putting too much pressure on your players to optimise every last ounce out of the mechanics? For example, you say a player isn't enjoying weapon masteries. Well, rather than fiddling around trying to find synergies, they could choose the masteries that are easiest - I would suggest Graze and Push.

It's not like the outcome would be any different if they charged in willy-nilly.

First 5.25game i played in I had a warlock player lean over to me (a wizard player) and say something like"this is stupid and I'm bored to tears" because every martial was juggling weapons like they were putting on a circus show between wandering around pointlessly at no risk while breaking up their attack across creatures they were pushing the gm for narrated swing by swing status updates on.

Have you considered that the design itself does that without any gm pressure at some tables?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

View attachment 430112

Camaraderie is witchcraft!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Have you considered that the design itself does that without any gm pressure at some tables?

People might pressure themselves to try and optimise everything, or feel pressured by other players. But I don’t think the system does, no. Because the system makes the game easy, and therefore doesn’t provide any incentive to optimise.

I haven’t seen my players switching weapons to change mastery powers. They just pick a weapon and stick with it.

 

[tetrasodium]

People might pressure themselves to try and optimise everything, or feel pressured by other players. But I don’t think the system does, no. Because the system makes the game easy, and therefore doesn’t provide any incentive to optimise.

I haven’t seen my players switching weapons to change mastery powers. They just pick a weapon and stick with it.

The mechanics alone are responsible and many people pointed it out during the play test. When an at will passively applied effect lasts for one round and can't be stacked it becomes logical to swap to a different weapon on the second attack and if someone already applied it before your turn.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The mechanics alone are responsible and many people pointed it out during the play test. When an at will passively applied effect lasts for one round and can't be stacked it becomes logical to swap to a different weapon on the second attack and if someone already applied it before your turn.

It’s less fun, makes no narrative sense, and there is no point since you are going to win anyway. So no, player’s fault, not the system.

 

[Chaltab]

A bit tangential to the current direction this thread is heading but I think Matt Mercer does a good job of making combats in 5E feel very tactical and using terrain, and his players often pick up the cues he puts down. Early in campaign 3, Liam's character used his battle master's kit to move one of a monsters appendages into a heavy machine and it completely locked the creature down and turned a tough fight into an easy win. Which makes sense, he's been a veteran of several editions and was DMing a 4E game and a Pathfinder game before the table that would become Critical Role switched to 5E.

 

[Neonchameleon]

People might pressure themselves to try and optimise everything, or feel pressured by other players. But I don’t think the system does, no. Because the system makes the game easy, and therefore doesn’t provide any incentive to optimise.

I haven’t seen my players switching weapons to change mastery powers. They just pick a weapon and stick with it.

Weapon juggling to me feels like an obvious use of a game exploit, like the peasant railgun or the bag of rats. And should really just be treated with either the rolled up newspaper or not playing at tier 3 or 4.

 

[tetrasodium]

A bit tangential to the current direction this thread is heading but I think Matt Mercer does a good job of making combats in 5E feel very tactical and using terrain, and his players often pick up the cues he puts down. Early in campaign 3, Liam's character used his battle master's kit to move one of a monsters appendages into a heavy machine and it completely locked the creature down and turned a tough fight into an easy win. Which makes sense, he's been a veteran of several editions and was DMing a 4E game and a Pathfinder game before the table that would become Critical Role switched to 5E.

His "Players" are Professional Voice Actors engaged in putting on a massively profitable made for profit presentation intended for passive viewer consumption.

Are you suggesting that is the bar players should be expected to meet after choosing not to ring out during a pre-session zero casting call/contract negotiation?

 

[Horwath]

Weapon juggling to me feels like an obvious use of a game exploit, like the peasant railgun or the bag of rats. And should really just be treated with either the rolled up newspaper or not playing at tier 3 or 4.

this is why I treat weapon masteries as "maneuvers light".

you know Vex mastery?
Apply it to every Light, Finesse or Ranged weapons
Graze mastery; every Versatile or 2Handed weapon
Nick: every Light weapon
Slow: any weapon
Topple/Push: every non-Light weapon

new mastery: Deadly(no brainer mastery)
+1 damage for Light, Finesse or Ranged weapons
+2 damage other weapons
extra +1 damage for Heavy weapons

For a simple barbarian Take Deadly and Graze mastery, with graastsword you either add +3 damage on a hit or deal STR mod damage on a miss.