Do you threaten while flat footed?

As far as I can tell, being flat-footed prevents you from taking AoOs but not from threatening. For instance, you can still contribute to flanking.
 

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Hypersmurf said:
If you can't take AoOs and it's not your turn, are there any squares into which you can make a melee attack?

The text of AoOs states "If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity".

The text for Strike, Unarmed is silent on the matter.

The text for Unarmed Attacks states "An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity", and for "Armed" Unarmed Attacks states "Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)".

So if an unarmed character doesn't threaten squares and thus can't make AoOs, but an 'armed' unarmed character can make AoOs, then - based on the assertion that despite being unable to make AoOs, a flat-footed character threatens - do we assume that the 'armed' unarmed character, while released from the No-AoOs restriction, is still subject to the 'doesn't threaten any squares' limitation?

-Hyp.
Click to expand...
I'll admit I have tried to translate your post, but I can't for the life of me.

May I ask you to further explain your point?

Edit: one more question.

What if I interpret that "even if it's not your action" as "you always threaten, even if it's not your action"?

This would mean that I would threaten no matter if I can attack or not.

Is this an acceptable interpretation?
 
Last edited:

Aaron said:
I'll admit I have tried to translate your post, but I can't for the life of me.

May I ask you to further explain your point?
Click to expand...

If we separate 'can take AoOs' from 'threatens an area', then Improved Unarmed Strike allows you to take AoOs, but does not allow you to threaten an area while unarmed.

-Hyp.
 


Hypersmurf said:
If we separate 'can take AoOs' from 'threatens an area', then Improved Unarmed Strike allows you to take AoOs, but does not allow you to threaten an area while unarmed.

-Hyp.
Click to expand...
But the feat states "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed".

Wouldn't this mean that you threaten with that feat?
 

Hypersmurf said:
You threaten any square into which you can make a melee attack, even if you can't make a melee attack?

-Hyp.
Click to expand...
Yes.

This is an interpretation of that sentence, where it states "even if it's not your turn".

If you assume that you need to make an AoO to threaten, you have that if you threaten you can make AoO, but to know if you can make AoO you must threaten.

Isn't this a loop?
 

Aaron said:
But the feat states "You are considered to be armed even when unarmed".

Wouldn't this mean that you threaten with that feat?
Click to expand...

The section on "Armed" Unarmed Attacks states that an 'armed' unarmed creature does not provoke an AoO for making an unarmed attack, and notes "the character can make attacks of opportunity". It doesn't say you threaten an area.

And if we're divorcing those two terms (so as to say that flat-footed, while preventing AoOs, does not prevent threatening), then the omission of threatening an area is significant.

Isn't this a loop?
Click to expand...

It is... but if we know that one cannot make an AoO (for example, if you are flat-footed), the loop is broken.

You only threaten if you can make an AoO; you can only make an AoO if you threaten... however, we know that because you are flat-footed you cannot make an AoO. Therefore the loop isn't a problem; since you cannot make an AoO, you do not threaten.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
The section on "Armed" Unarmed Attacks states that an 'armed' unarmed creature does not provoke an AoO for making an unarmed attack, and notes "the character can make attacks of opportunity". It doesn't say you threaten an area.
Click to expand...
But the IUS feat and the description of the natural weapon in the MM do say that.

What is left out is the touch attack, I think.

It is... but if we know that one cannot make an AoO (for example, if you are flat-footed), the loop is broken.

You only threaten if you can make an AoO
Click to expand...
This is right based on your interpretation.

But if you start from another interpretation, i.e. that you threaten regardless AdO or not (even if it's not your action), this becomes a neverending loop.
 

Aaron said:
But the IUS feat and the description of the natural weapon in the MM do say that.
Click to expand...

The IUS feat says nothing about threatening. It says "You are considered to be armed - that is, you do not provoke AoOs from armed opponents; however, you can make an AoO against an opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you".

It mentions nothing about threatening an area.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
The IUS feat says nothing about threatening. It says "You are considered to be armed - that is, you do not provoke AoOs from armed opponents; however, you can make an AoO against an opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you".

It mentions nothing about threatening an area.

-Hyp.
Click to expand...
But if you start from the other interpretation, i.e. you threaten if you are armed, the IUS feat says that you threaten.
 

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