Push and Pull

I'm trying to get a clarification on the 4e Push and Pull rules. The PHB says that for a push, each square you move the target must be away from you. It doesn't discuss anything else, though, so does that mean that a push isn't necessarily a straight line? Could I zig-zag someone away from me?

I ask because I'm playing a wizard with Thunderwave, and I can see where it would be nice to be able to push enemies towards or away from my allies, depending on the tactical situation. Or perhaps push a bunch of enemies closer together so that I can Force Orb them with an action point after the Thunderwave.

Any clarification insights would be appreciated. Thanks!

Nothing says it is any more limited than that it must be away.

I have to read that as offering several choices for each square of push and in no way limiting you to straight lines.

What you could not do is move them closer to you or sideways (neither closer nor further). Thus, you don't have all 8 squares available as you would if shifting a foe. But each square he moves into must be further away. Because of the diagonal rules used, this can sometimes make the legal moves less than 100% obvious.

For example...


You are at U, it is at X. You may push to A, B, or C.


You may still push to A, B, or C. D is still equidistant so illegal even though it is further along one axis. C is actually closer along one axis but totals out to FURTHER by D&D math. (In effect, D&D math says only the longer axis counts.)

For the next square of push, apply the same rule as the first. Repeat until all squares are used or you want to stop.

Awesome! Thanks for the images, they definitely help.

I'm kind of liking the new rules so far, can't wait to see how they play in more situations than fighting kobolds.

JGulick said:

Nothing says it is any more limited than that it must be away.

I have to read that as offering several choices for each square of push and in no way limiting you to straight lines.

What you could not do is move them closer to you or sideways (neither closer nor further). Thus, you don't have all 8 squares available as you would if shifting a foe. But each square he moves into must be further away. Because of the diagonal rules used, this can sometimes make the legal moves less than 100% obvious.

For example...

Code:

 .....
 .ABC.
 .DXE.
 .FGH.
 .....
 ..U..

You are at U, it is at X. You may push to A, B, or C.

Code:

 .....
 .ABC.
 .DXE.
 .FGH.
 .....
 ...U.

You may still push to A, B, or C. D is still equidistant so illegal even though it is further along one axis. C is actually closer along one axis but totals out to FURTHER by D&D math. (In effect, D&D math says only the longer axis counts.)

For the next square of push, apply the same rule as the first. Repeat until all squares are used or you want to stop.

Click to expand...

That makes sense, though I am curious on something. Given when something says you MAY push/pull a target X squares, do you have to do the full amount, or can you use a smaller number. For example, Positioning Strike might have times when you need to move them far away, or maybe just a couple (assuming artful dodger of course).

You can use a smaller amount. It's in the combat section where they discuss forced movement.

If multiple foes are pushed or pulled from one use of a power, do they get moved one at a time, or are they moved simultaneously?

Provided the repositioning is not simultaneous, i think the following would be all legal pushes.

That diagram looks right. I don't know if it specifies officially anywhere, but we've been doing them one at a time. Simultaneous pushes would be a nightmare if you're trying to figure out how to push more than a couple enemies at a time.

James McMurray said:

That diagram looks right. I don't know if it specifies officially anywhere, but we've been doing them one at a time. Simultaneous pushes would be a nightmare if you're trying to figure out how to push more than a couple enemies at a time.

Click to expand...

You can do each enemy one at a time, but they can't -end up- in the same square, because moving objects can go through the squares of their allies. When they're moving at the same time from a push, they're -moving- so it doesn't matter if they're occupying the same square during the move. It's the -end result- that matters.

The fighter/black mage diagram is correct.

All forced movement is by your will, and has the following restrictions:

Must have line of effect to the square you force-move it to.
If the power specifies a destination you must use that destination.
Forced movement does not incur attacks of opportunity.
Forced movement ignores difficult terrain.
Forced movement ignores their speed.

Forced movement includes: sliding, pushing, pulling, and swapping.

Swapping works by sliding the target, and shifting yourself, and specifies destination, but is otherwise unrestricted.
Pushing specifies each square of movement must be further away than the last, but is otherwise unrestricted.
Pulling specifies each square of movement must be closer than the last... but is otherwise unrestricted.

If you push you chose where they go within those restrictions.

Yes, that's why Thunderwave is so good.

Yesterday I was looking at the 3rd level ranger archer power (forgot the name) that shoots/hits twice and each successful hit pushes the target 1 space and if both connect then you push the target an additional 2+WIS spaces.

If you are a elf (which you should be as a archer ranger) and have a 18 in WIS then at 3rd level you're able to push a enemy 7 squares away at range.

Diagram with periods representing a wall:


Alternate Diagram where A gets push around 2 corners and down a hall:
In this way, you can push someone around a corner, over a cliff that's off to the left if they're coming straight at you, etc etc..

Code:

.A.
. .
. ....
.... .
   . .
   .A.
    
      
     U

In this way, you can push someone around a corner, over a cliff that's off to the left if they're coming straight at you, etc etc..

Click to expand...

Not quite. The square around the corner isn't farther away than the one directly down the hallway, so you can't push them around the corner here.