D&D 5E Replacing Expertise with Lucky

Fenris-77 · Jan 18, 2020

Or perhaps just limit the application of expertise to the skills on the class list. Thieves are good at thief stuff, sounds fair to me. That fixes the age old problem of the Rogue Arcana expert. As far as swingy goes, maybe advantage is a better option, stacking to elven accuracy when combined with an additional source of advantage. Just a thought.

Prakriti · Jan 18, 2020

Lucky slows down the game. All reactive rolling does. Adding more would drive me crazy.

NotAYakk · Jan 18, 2020

Quartz said:
For the fighter at level 9? Yes. But not if you make it an ability gained very early on and usable often.

No, period.

A burn resource to reroll on failure.

1) It is a resource burn, so a decision point. Every decision point slows the game.
2) The benefit is proportional to the success chance. So the player has to do thinking to work out what the estimated ROI is. Slow.
3) The opportunity is proportional to the failure chance. So usually comes up when it is a bad ROI.

This means it slows down play about as inefficently as it could, and naive use is highly disappointing. Optimal use ends up being full of "hmm, one second, let me think. Hurm. Ok, no, proceed" of literally halting the game repeatedly to say "nothing happens". Non-optimal use is "failed! I burn a reroll! Ok nevermind, still failed. Proceed."

DEFCON 1 · Jan 18, 2020

Another option is to keep Expertise as a name but replace the bonus from using double-proficiency to what they give dragonmarks in Eberron-- a bonus +1d4 to a skill check. For instance, the Mark of Finding is:

Hunter’s Intuition. When you make a Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check, you can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the ability check.

To be honest it doesn't change a whole lot other than removing the possibility of the +5 and +6 bonuses from high-prof characters with standard Expertise, while also giving low-level Rogues the potential for an even higher bonus than the +2 they would normally get from the doubled proficiency. But at least perception-wise... they don't have the "hard bonus" (of ability mod + prof or double-prof) that people always think of that makes them seem "better" that other classes.

Of course, you're never going to actually find any Rogue players who actually take Expertise in Arcana and max out their INT to eventually actually be "better" than the wizards that are supposedly meant to be the "best" at it... but you know, people white-room the game to death anyway and try to re-jigger the rules to "clean it up" , but at the end of the day it never actually matters.

Charlaquin · Jan 18, 2020

If I might make an alternative suggestion: Keep expertise, but instead of doubling your proficiency bonus for your expertise skills, add a proficiency die (DMG 236).

NotAYakk · Jan 18, 2020

Um, that is what the poster right above you said.

Don Durito · Jan 18, 2020

NotAYakk said:
No, period.

A burn resource to reroll on failure.

1) It is a resource burn, so a decision point. Every decision point slows the game.
2) The benefit is proportional to the success chance. So the player has to do thinking to work out what the estimated ROI is. Slow.
3) The opportunity is proportional to the failure chance. So usually comes up when it is a bad ROI.

This means it slows down play about as inefficently as it could, and naive use is highly disappointing. Optimal use ends up being full of "hmm, one second, let me think. Hurm. Ok, no, proceed" of literally halting the game repeatedly to say "nothing happens". Non-optimal use is "failed! I burn a reroll! Ok nevermind, still failed. Proceed."

I think slowing down resolving skills rolls by a few seconds is something that can be lived with.

Spending resources to reroll is a point of tension - because you don't spend them if it's not important - so highlighting that is not bad.

And skills take bugger all time to resolve anyway.

Son of the Serpent · Jan 18, 2020

Charlaquin said:
If I might make an alternative suggestion: Keep expertise, but instead of doubling your proficiency bonus for your expertise skills, add a proficiency die (DMG 236).

Seconded. Keep the game organic. Besides, expertise is for munchkins. We all know it.

Don Durito · Jan 18, 2020

Charlaquin said:
If I might make an alternative suggestion: Keep expertise, but instead of doubling your proficiency bonus for your expertise skills, add a proficiency die (DMG 236).

I thought of that. But that doesn't actually change anything except to make Expertise more swingy.

One option would be to perhaps allow the proficiency die to be added to the reroll.

Charlaquin · Jan 18, 2020

Don Durito said:
I thought of that. But that doesn't actually change anything except to make Expertise more swingy.

One option would be to perhaps allow the proficiency die to be added to the reroll.

I’m unclear what you’re trying to accomplish with the reroll. Do you just want to limit the number of times per day rogues can benefit from their skill-enhancing feature?

D&D 5E Replacing Expertise with Lucky

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you

NotAYakk

Legend

DEFCON 1

Legend

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

NotAYakk

Legend

Don Durito

Hero

Son of the Serpent

Pupil

Don Durito

Hero

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Similar Threads