D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

Elfcrusher said:

Doh.

It hadn't even occurred to me, until I read this, how half-orcs perfectly illustrate the problem.

I'm only going to speak for myself here, but I'm guessing a lot of players share this experience. When I picture a half-elf, I assume some kind of interracial love story. The dad might be the human, or the mom might be. They're probably living happily in a tree-house or rustic farm or maybe in an apartment above their magic shoppe.

When I imagine a half-orc, the orc is always the father. And let's just say there isn't exactly a romcom in the backstory. Yaknowhaddimean?

To me this shows how effective the language and imagery around orcs have been. Orcs are the archetype of the bestial savage that is going to invade our country and rape our women. The bogeyman that has been invoked for centuries...millennia?...by those who want to vilify another people for political or economic ends.

Yup, no more half-orcs in my games. I might eventually re-visit the theme, but for now easiest to remove them. It's just too....icky.

Click to expand...

Wishbone said:

I think it's better to offer to climb the mountain with them, which I don't see as necessarily disagreeing with your point of view. The fact that you were willing to have the conversation at all and listen to this person's point of view and hear them out is the important part to me.

Click to expand...

Maxperson said:

Exactly. The choice of race has no meaning at all with respect to the class. You can literally plug any race into the wizard and be the same as that dwarf there. Int bonus or no int bonus.

Click to expand...

dnd4vr said:

Well, you want to climb it with them, I want to cheer them on and watch them climb it themselves.

Now, to continue with that analogy (I sort of like it...) when I am showing them, and they are making "baby steps" and learning, I am certainly right by their side and doing it with them. BUT, when it comes time, I believe they need to be able to make that climb themselves. Like I said, I'll be there cheering them on all the way, because I want them to gain the power over those things that might otherwise hurt them.

Click to expand...

dnd4vr said:

Well, you want to climb it with them, I want to cheer them on and watch them climb it themselves.

Now, to continue with that analogy (I sort of like it...) when I am showing them, and they are making "baby steps" and learning, I am certainly right by their side and doing it with them. BUT, when it comes time, I believe they need to be able to make that climb themselves. Like I said, I'll be there cheering them on all the way, because I want them to gain the power over those things that might otherwise hurt them.

Click to expand...

Elfcrusher said:

Yes, all of us have ancestors who raped and pillaged, and were also the victims of it.

But what we are talking about is the intentional portrayal of some peoples as being more predisposed to doing this, in order to promote an image of those people as sub-human monsters deserving of death. (Probably either to harden their own people for the coming battle, or to identify a common enemy for political reasons, or both.)

I'm sure...literally 100.0% sure...that in Alfred the Great's era the Danish invaders were portrayed as especially likely to rape, even though in reality the A-S were just as likely to do it. Why am I sure? Because that image of vikings has persisted for 1,000 years. The difference (to the A-S) was, of course, that they were merely raping sub-human Danish animals, so it wasn't as bad.

So, yes, rape between enemy peoples has been common throughout history. But here's the question, that I'm only asking you to think about, not answer: how often do you envision Half-elves as being the product of rape, versus Half-orcs? If it's not approximately equal, then you have fallen for a variant of racist propaganda that exactly mirrors the propaganda used in the real world, historically and present day, to dehumanize others.

Click to expand...

Micah Sweet said:

While the first half-elf character I ever encountered, Tanis from Dragonlance, was explicitly the product of rape, I will in general admit that sort of thing seems more half-orc than half-elf. Definitely worth contemplating.

Click to expand...

dave2008 said:

How about we let pictures do the talking, they are worth 1,000 words after all (from each edition MM):
View attachment 123994
View attachment 123995
View attachment 123996
View attachment 123997
View attachment 123999

Click to expand...

dnd4vr said:

That really doesn't show anything. It shows we retaliate to attack. It shows human anger and frustration and fear. The humans that went into the bugs native habitat were peaceful, but the bugs killed them.

Click to expand...

Verhoeven stated in 1997 that the first scene of the film—an advertisement for the Mobile Infantry—was adapted shot-for-shot from a scene in Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will (1935), specifically an outdoor rally for the Reichsarbeitsdienst. Other references to Nazism in the movie include the Wehrmacht-inspired uniforms and insignia of field grade officers, M.I. working uniforms reminiscent of Mussolini's Blackshirts, Albert Speer's style of architecture, and its propagandistic dialogue ("Violence is the supreme authority!").

Click to expand...