D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

Helldritch · Sep 26, 2020

Flamestrike said:
Yes you can hear the monk. Hes not being quiet or taking any action to conceal his presence.

He can do that whenever he wants but chooses not to.

We are talking about a monk. Not a knight in full armor. The monk is naturally stealthy. A monk does not wear heavy boots if he wears any. He won't be heard in a combat situation where a guard is shouting and every other guards are rushing to his aid with all the noises accompanying them.

Nope the monk will not be heard. But for the sake of the argument...

A 5th level monk has a dex of 18 and a proficiency of +3 giving a +7 to stealth. Running makes you make your check at disadvantage so a total +2 should be assumed. With an average roll of 11 on the dice it gives 13.

For the guard, we will assume proficiency of +2, and a +1 from wisdom. With an average roll of 11 it gives us 14! Hahah! The monk is heard! Nope, because of the noise and screaming sound based perception are made at disadvantage so -5 on that check for 9... well below the monk. All this without rolling.

No the monk isn't heard.

Oofta · Sep 26, 2020

I think this is one of those topics where some DMs just hate invisibility. I mean, I get it, it can be annoying.

Then they point to the PHB chapter 7 on the section on hiding which says:

You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.

Which, okay. An invisible creature can always try to hide. What it doesn't say contrary what many people seem to say is that they must hide for their position to be unknown.

Let's take a look at the definition of invisible:

An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.

Okay, so you can detect where an invisible if the creature interacts with the environment in such a way that can be detected. I agree. Leaving tracks in the sand? Running through some vegetation moving it aside carelessly? Pushing people aside on a busy street? Sure. But the operative words are "can be" detected; there is no "will always be" detected.

The rules are clear. You don't have to run it by the book but an invisible creature cannot be detected by site according to the rules. There is no shimmering distortion. So knowing where someone is that moves away? That's a whole lot of maybe depending on amount of sound made by the creature vs amount of ambient sound that's going to block all chances of hearing it.

How I run it depends on the situation but it may be anything from "it succeeds" to "they see your footprints in the mud" to "make a dexterity check to avoid all the obstacles".

Helldritch · Sep 26, 2020

Yep, some DMs seem to hate invisibility. But they should not gimp it to nothingness because of that. I agree that invisibility isn't all powerful and in many circumstances an invisible opponent can be fought and even found. But if invisibility was so weak, it would not exist. Hey guys! Look! I am invisible !

Pfffft, you're easy to locate man. Find something else to be powerful...

Invisibility is a powerful spell. It should be hard to fight invisibility and it should be something to be feared.

DEFCON 1 · Sep 26, 2020

All this back and forth about whether the Monk is Hidden just to get the Monk TWO things...

Attacking the Monk but having to guess the square he's in, and the Monk getting to make his next attack with Advantage.

That's it!

And as I said earlier... if the Monk has run 100' away from his target, the odds of the target attacking him back are so small as to be insignificant. Cause instead the target will find the closest easier to target to attack, so who gives a heck where the Monk ran off to and whether he's Hidden or not.

And as far as attacking with Advantage? Great, the Monk is gaining a bonus that almost every other PC can and will gain throughout a fight themselves. Big freakin' deal! The Hidden Rogue will be attacking with Advantage. The Battlemaster Fighter who Feinted will be attacking with Advantage. The person who attacks after the Cleric cast Guiding Bolt will be attacking Advantage. Everyone who sees the enemy that is encased in Faerie Fire will be attacking with Advantage. Attacking with Advantage is such a generic bonus that it baffles me why so many people feel they need to argue the merits as to whether the Monk can gain it or not. Especially after it went through all the trouble to gain Greater Invisibility.

All this time arguing about something so inconsequential like this is like arguing about what the definition of "is" is.

Hriston · Sep 26, 2020

The monk has advantage by virtue of being invisible and, thus, unseen, so it’s really just the one thing.

DEFCON 1 · Sep 26, 2020

That's right! So really all this argument is about whether the target of the Monk has to guess the square the Monk is in or not. And regardless, the attack is with Disadvantage.

Unless the Monk is the last party member in the fight, there is not going to be a single time that target is going to run halfway across the battlefield to go looking for him, only to guess which square he is in or not.

So this is all much ado about nothing.

Teemu · Sep 26, 2020

Oofta said:
Let's try a thought experiment. Close your eyes. Have someone walk 100 ft away. Do you know where they are? I'd be amazed if you did unless they're playing a musical instrument or wearing tap shoes on a hard floor. To me, that's the same thing as invisibility.

In some situations you might know where they are, in most you will not. The DM has to make judgement calls about what can possibly be perceived. PCs are more capable than your average couch potato like me, but common sense still has to come into play.

Now close your eyes and start hurrying and dashing about. Is it more difficult to maintain balance when your eyes are closed? Do you bump into things? Not in 5e.

Can you run 30 feet, then change course 180 degrees and not lose momentum? In 5e that's no problem.

Can you jump off a building and run a marathon? In 5e you can.

Common sense and the rules of 5e aren't always in sync.

Oofta · Sep 26, 2020

Teemu said:
Now close your eyes and start hurrying and dashing about. Is it more difficult to maintain balance when your eyes are closed? Do you bump into things? Not in 5e.

Can you run 30 feet, then change course 180 degrees and not lose momentum? In 5e that's no problem.

Can you jump off a building and run a marathon? In 5e you can.

Common sense and the rules of 5e aren't always in sync.

Whether you can do most of those things are not covered by the rules and therefore up to the DM. I agree that some rules like HP are simplifications of reality.

But the rules do not, cannot and don't even try to cover all scenarios. When they did in 3.x it was a never ending rabbit hole. In 4 they used board game rules*. In 5E they leave it up to each group to determine what makes sense for them.

*Sort of, it's complicated.

NotAYakk · Sep 27, 2020

They aren't "just walking" 100 feet away. Every 6 seconds they are actively doing something combat related - sprinting, attacking, casting a spell - and have been doing it continuously with no time to catch their balance and ... hide.

The hidr action means "walk at cautious combat pace while paying attention to not being noisy or obvious" in this context.

If someone casts invisibiliy and moves 30 feet, the rules have A then B happen, but they actually happened in the same 6 seconds. They where casting it as they walked.

If you want to cast invis, then move away, that is invis, hide action and move. 2 rounds. 1 to cast one to move.

Flamestrike · Sep 27, 2020

Helldritch said:
We are talking about a monk. Not a knight in full armor. The monk is naturally stealthy. A monk does not wear heavy boots if he wears any. He won't be heard in a combat situation where a guard is shouting and every other guards are rushing to his aid with all the noises accompanying them.

Nope the monk will not be heard. But for the sake of the argument...

A 5th level monk has a dex of 18 and a proficiency of +3 giving a +7 to stealth. Running makes you make your check at disadvantage so a total +2 should be assumed. With an average roll of 11 on the dice it gives 13.

For the guard, we will assume proficiency of +2, and a +1 from wisdom. With an average roll of 11 it gives us 14! Hahah! The monk is heard! Nope, because of the noise and screaming sound based perception are made at disadvantage so -5 on that check for 9... well below the monk. All this without rolling.

No the monk isn't heard.

The monk is heard until he makes his Stealth check via the Hide action.

Theyre the rules.

But you do you.

D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

Helldritch

Hero

Oofta

Legend

Helldritch

Hero

DEFCON 1

Legend

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth

DEFCON 1

Legend

Teemu

Hero

Oofta

Legend

NotAYakk

Legend

Flamestrike

Legend

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