D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

Minigiant said:

Fixing the monk is actually not that hard.

1. Add more options of AC calculation.
2. Add more options for Unarmed and Weapon attack calculation
3. Add more attack options to choose besides Flurry of Blows.

Do those 3 things and you fix a good 90% of the issues. The problem with the monk was always 2 things. And one of them was that it was based on a ~1970s movie/tv trope and only a single martial art. It's 2021 and there are dozens of martial arts, real and fictional.

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You're probably right, but WotC will never do that. We still have rangers based on a single character (Aragorn) across 5 editions (only pre-Essentials 4e ever stepped away from that).

The name alone is a problem. There's a huge difference between a non-mystic/religious martial artist, a sohei (heavily armored Japanese warrior monk) and a Shaolin monk. But as many have said, it's based on a single martial art.

Minigiant said:

Add more options of AC calculation.

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I remember how the first Neverwinter Nights pc game legit had a unique set of armors that Monks could wear that were called Monk Robes. The idea was that it was a light set of armor that was unique for the fact that it didn't interfere with the Monk's Unarmored Defense and Unarmored Movement abilities. One of them even had a perma-haste effect on it. Now as far as I recall, outside of DM Fiat/customization, Monk Robes were a unique classification of armor, for Monks, that were ONLY found in Neverwinter Nights 1. Two other robes in the game had AC modifiers as well.

I always liked the idea of Monk Robes because of that game. Technically, one could have it/make it where you could introduce a new set of light armor category listing where said Monk Robes could follow the AC rules listing for Light Armor.

Course, that may end up being a similar issue with Monks and DEX/WIS like it is now. Unless somehow you let it follow Medium Armor rules with Light Armor Dex scaling. Or act like a shield/helmet/AC modifier that is added on top of the Monk's AC.

I also feel like, personally, some of the Monk Subclasses have tried to address certain issues with the Monk or have tried to increase its power. The Way of Astral Self allows the monk to make a decent amount of multiple attacks with a damage typing that is rarely resisted, the Open Hand is the classic Lockdown option, or in the case of Tiamat type situations if allowed, Legendary Action eater, Kensei increases the options of weapons/allowing Archer Monks, and the Sun Soul allows ranged Martial Arts attacks. Heck we get a Healer monk via Way of Mercy. If you allow 3pp or UA style material, the Way of the Soul Knife can pretty much do double damage constantly via vulnerability damage rules by making everything it attacks weak towards Psychic damage.(I could be off on that one, but I could've sworn I read that correctly if I am.)

Are they the best fixes? Probably not. Especially with how some options require 3PP and your DM's mileage may super vary. The idea of a Hawk Aven Kensei Monk means you have a literal flying Birb Monk Sniper.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

You're probably right, but WotC will never do that. We still have rangers based on a single character (Aragorn) across 5 editions (only pre-Essentials 4e ever stepped away from that).

The name alone is a problem. There's a huge difference between a non-mystic/religious martial artist, a sohei (heavily armored Japanese warrior monk) and a Shaolin monk. But as many have said, it's based on a single martial art.

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everyone knows the name must be fixed but the class has more pressing problems.

Weiley31 said:

I remember how the first Neverwinter Nights pc game legit had a unique set of armors that Monks could wear that were called Monk Robes. The idea was that it was a light set of armor that was unique for the fact that it didn't interfere with the Monk's Unarmored Defense and Unarmored Movement abilities. One of them even had a perma-haste effect on it. Now as far as I recall, outside of DM Fiat/customization, Monk Robes were a unique classification of armor, for Monks, that were ONLY found in Neverwinter Nights 1. Two other robes in the game had AC modifiers as well.

I always liked the idea of Monk Robes because of that game. Technically, one could have it/make it where you could introduce a new set of light armor category listing where said Monk Robes could follow the AC rules listing for Light Armor.

Course, that may end up being a similar issue with Monks and DEX/WIS like it is now. Unless somehow you let it follow Medium Armor rules with Light Armor Dex scaling. Or act like a shield/helmet/AC modifier that is added on top of the Monk's AC.

I also feel like, personally, some of the Monk Subclasses have tried to address certain issues with the Monk or have tried to increase its power. The Way of Astral Self allows the monk to make a decent amount of multiple attacks with a damage typing that is rarely resisted, the Open Hand is the classic Lockdown option, or in the case of Tiamat type situations if allowed, Legendary Action eater, Kensei increases the options of weapons/allowing Archer Monks, and the Sun Soul allows ranged Martial Arts attacks. Heck we get a Healer monk via Way of Mercy. If you allow 3pp or UA style material, the Way of the Soul Knife can pretty much do double damage constantly via vulnerability damage rules by making everything it attacks weak towards Psychic damage.(I could be off on that one, but I could've sworn I read that correctly if I am.)

Are they the best fixes? Probably not. Especially with how some options require 3PP and your DM's mileage may super vary. The idea of a Hawk Aven Kensei Monk means you have a literal flying Birb Monk Sniper.

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monk robes would do well as a magic item.
the buffs are like duck tape on a broken car mirror they keep you going but they are not a proper fix.

There are only two versions of D&D where the Monk is even vaguely good - 4e and 5e. And that's because the Monk has an identity in both of the Wire-Fu Master - which is something you do. 3.X was groping towards that - but the magic item Christmas tree deprecated its options (the easier it is to fly the less useful wire fu) and the full attacks opposing movement was a huge problem. Meanwhile the 1e Monk? Let's not go there.

The 5e monk does however have a practical game design problem in that levels 7, 8, 9, and 10 are all extremely meh. And that's an extremely long stretch at an extremely bad time to have an entirely meh list of advancements.

• Level 8 is an ASI - which (as for fighter, rogue, and barbarian) is lame compared to the casters getting one because they also get something new at the same time.
• Levels 7 and 10 are defensive abilities, most of which simply let you no-sell things that very rarely appear. Evasion's about as good as a passive ability gets. Charmed and frightened are rare. As for that matter are poison and disease.
• Level 9 is the ability to run up walls and over water. Excellent ... except that it isn't often needed and wizards have been able to cast spider climb since level 3 if they can be bothered (which they normally can't because it's not a common enough situation to go in their spellbooks) while the water walking is exceptionally limited.

I'm not saying that any of these are terrible. But they're all Ranger-level mediocre without even gaining higher level spells. And more to the point almost all of them are passives. There needs to be something punchier in there.

vincegetorix said:

I've half a mind to fuse sorcerers and monk together, making them the class that represent the ''power comes from inside'' idea. The class would group the concept of elemental bending ala Avatar, the jedi and other such concept where the character has a inner pool of power that they learn over time to master.

Archetypes:
Dragon Disciple
Elementalist
Chaos Anchorite

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the original Blackmoor monk was described as a ’sub-class of Clerics which also combines the general attributes of Thief and Fighting-Man’ And had Wis and Dex requires, thief skills, self healing, stunning blow and the quivering palm.

Also interestingly enough the Monk was originally going to be called the Mystic but it was changed due to the TV show Kung Fu

So yup I could appreciate a Mystic Class being a merged scorcerer-Monk that allows for powers to be channeled through physical disciplines.

That said I kinda liked the 3e Wizard-killer type monk, it makes sense to me that in a D&D type world that a group of specialist designed to disrupt the magic WMDs would develop

Monks aren't terrible and can be a lot of fun to play. But I think there are a few fundamental issues that that cause problems.

First I will state that I think the balance of Ki points is off. I think they don't get enough at low levels and get more than enough at high level. I think they need an extra column added to their level chart with the Ki points the get which should not be equal to level. Maybe based on 2x Proficiency Bonus might work but is possibly too much at level 1 and 2. In addition some subclasses need an added pool of points that can only be used to fuel their subclass features. If 4 Element Monks had an extra pool of point that only worked for their spell they could be an effect and fun option rather than a waste of space.
Also being a short rest resource has its own issues. Most classes are long rest based so many party are reluctant to take short rests as often as short rest classes need even when there is no downside to resting, people that gain nothing from them often don't want to take them (my current warlock character feels this pain).

Secondly, and perhaps more significantly, is the lack of reliance on equipment and therefore lack of equipment based improvement options. While a 1 level Monk may be comparable to a starting martial class in the AC front, Fighters and such will quickly be able to afford new mundane armour and improve their AC. Also other martials are more likely to get magic items that help their damage output. Even if a Monk opts for a Monk weapon and gets a magical one (something that doesn't always fit the image players are aiming for if they want a Unarmed martial artist) the weapon can't be used for the Monks bonus and flurry attacks. So the Fighters get their flameblades and magic armour and the Monks are still punching people with their bare fists and relying on the few ASIs to increase their AC.
Monks need more magic item support. They need magic Monk Robe armour and magic fist wraps or similar items to improve their attacks and AC. Without that they fall behind other classes with access to such things.

It doesn't take a lot to make Monks as good other class options.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

You're probably right, but WotC will never do that. We still have rangers based on a single character (Aragorn) across 5 editions (only pre-Essentials 4e ever stepped away from that).

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It did in 4e sorta.
The issue with 5e was that WOTC was chasing nostalgia and simplicity. It wasn't going to have 3 different Unarmored Defenses and a choice of Flurry of Blows, Dragon Punch, Rising Storm, and Stone Strike.

Neonchameleon said:

There are only two versions of D&D where the Monk is even vaguely good - 4e and 5e. And that's because the Monk has an identity in both of the Wire-Fu Master - which is something you do. 3.X was groping towards that - but the magic item Christmas tree deprecated its options (the easier it is to fly the less useful wire fu) and the full attacks opposing movement was a huge problem. Meanwhile the 1e Monk? Let's not go there.

The 5e monk does however have a practical game design problem in that levels 7, 8, 9, and 10 are all extremely meh. And that's an extremely long stretch at an extremely bad time to have an entirely meh list of advancements.

• Level 8 is an ASI - which (as for fighter, rogue, and barbarian) is lame compared to the casters getting one because they also get something new at the same time.
• Levels 7 and 10 are defensive abilities, most of which simply let you no-sell things that very rarely appear. Evasion's about as good as a passive ability gets. Charmed and frightened are rare. As for that matter are poison and disease.
• Level 9 is the ability to run up walls and over water. Excellent ... except that it isn't often needed and wizards have been able to cast spider climb since level 3 if they can be bothered (which they normally can't because it's not a common enough situation to go in their spellbooks) while the water walking is exceptionally limited.

I'm not saying that any of these are terrible. But they're all Ranger-level mediocre without even gaining higher level spells. And more to the point almost all of them are passives. There needs to be something punchier in there.

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so need some more fun at the mid-levels okay that will need to be added to the list.

Tonguez said:

the original Blackmoor monk was described as a ’sub-class of Clerics which also combines the general attributes of Thief and Fighting-Man’ And had Wis and Dex requires, thief skills, self healing, stunning blow and the quivering palm.

Also interestingly enough the Monk was originally going to be called the Mystic but it was changed due to the TV show Kung Fu

So yup I could appreciate a Mystic Class being a merged scorcerer-Monk that allows for powers to be channeled through physical disciplines.

That said I kinda liked the 3e Wizard-killer type monk, it makes sense to me that in a D&D type world that a group of specialist designed to disrupt the magic WMDs would develop

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I will put that down on the subclass concept list.

speaking of which here is what ideas I do have if anyone has better ideas tell me them.
On what should and should not be a tradition

I hate the traditions that seem to amount to cool fighting moves and I prefer ones with strong thematic ideas so the way of the shadow could stay mostly intact but a way of the drunken master brakes down into a fighting style.
will need to really do some research here as this is by far the most difficult area to fix plus good subclasses can make or break a 5e class.

organised concepts for subclasses

classic monks and such.

1the classic Shaolin concept has a classic appeal and has rarely been done properly

2 something derived from Sōhei for a more armed and armoured option for the people who love paladins but kind of want a monk plus I do not have to start from scratch as this has appeared before.
3 something very Dao/Tao as this certainly has parts of it running throughout mystical martial artists in media so it could work plus alchemy could be fun.
4 a rather different kind of monk turns out a lot of in-universe monks are of particular gods and there is a real-world group I could work from who turns out some of the devotees shiva could work for inspiration will need to look into it especially as to not anger them so not a one to one but it is a better starting point than most for this type
5 got an idea for a version of the monk class with a more western outlook merging the way of mercy, orphic mysteries style faith, liminality and life/death themes together for a monk that fits into western fantasy better.

obviously relate concepts but rather divergent so not likely to be true monks but likely working under the same framework.
1 some kinda classic wuxia character but not a monk will need to look into this as what binds the wondering martial artist is presently unknown to me.
2 ninjas always got to have ninjas plus we already have the way of the shadow so it would be a shame to waste it.
3 Cerulean order this one is going to take a long had explanation but is something largely original taking bits of 4e lore, the four-element monk and its inspiration(last air bender but with a less chosen one vibe.), a bit of the spirit monk order from jade empire and demon binder monks of japan I have the idea of an order of monk-like people whos job it is to deal with spirits, elementals and other extra planer visitors so other mortals do not have to live in fear both plenty of energy styles and some diplomatic abilities for less violent resolutions.
4no idea right now but more ideas can't be bad, can they?

I am fairly certain all my ideas are trash and recommend that others come up with better ideas.

I think the main problem is a lot of groups aren't doing the 6-8 encounters or more critically two short rests.

The class is still MAD kinda needs higher ability scores.

I liked my one but had higher stats and went out of my way to get two short rests. It was also one of the better monk archtypes though way of fists of

Also it's tactical and pacing as well. I'm used to Vancian slots and saving them so ki points are easy.

I don't regard it as a newbie class you really need to know what you're doing.

Finally there's no equivalent of the -5/+10 feats. Their damage is fine just with class abilities.

Lycurgon said:

Monks aren't terrible and can be a lot of fun to play. But I think there are a few fundamental issues that that cause problems.

First I will state that I think the balance of Ki points is off. I think they don't get enough at low levels and get more than enough at high level. I think they need an extra column added to their level chart with the Ki points the get which should not be equal to level. Maybe based on 2x Proficiency Bonus might work but is possibly too much at level 1 and 2. In addition some subclasses need an added pool of points that can only be used to fuel their subclass features. If 4 Element Monks had an extra pool of point that only worked for their spell they could be an effect and fun option rather than a waste of space.
Also being a short rest resource has its own issues. Most classes are long rest based so many party are reluctant to take short rests as often as short rest classes need even when there is no downside to resting, people that gain nothing from them often don't want to take them (my current warlock character feels this pain).

Secondly, and perhaps more significantly, is the lack of reliance on equipment and therefore lack of equipment based improvement options. While a 1 level Monk may be comparable to a starting martial class in the AC front, Fighters and such will quickly be able to afford new mundane armour and improve their AC. Also other martials are more likely to get magic items that help their damage output. Even if a Monk opts for a Monk weapon and gets a magical one (something that doesn't always fit the image players are aiming for if they want a Unarmed martial artist) the weapon can't be used for the Monks bonus and flurry attacks. So the Fighters get their flameblades and magic armour and the Monks are still punching people with their bare fists and relying on the few ASIs to increase their AC.
Monks need more magic item support. They need magic Monk Robe armour and magic fist wraps or similar items to improve their attacks and AC. Without that they fall behind other classes with access to such things.

It doesn't take a lot to make Monks as good other class options.

Click to expand...

I have considered monk magic items but I wanted to get the base class right first, but they lack much in items or way to be improved at high levels.