D&D 5E On rulings, rules, and Twitter, or: How Sage Advice Changed

Krachek · Apr 27, 2021

I read carefully the OP and I agree with the Dev to go to a strait forward approach on ruling.
It was a nice text about the world wide implication of elf transe, but honestly they can’t do that for every rules clarification. The sage advice compendium is already 21 page long, they can’t add for each clarification there one or two paragraph to explain possible impact on game balance or world building if we follow or not follow the clarification. That´s not the role of a FAQ document.

But I see in the OP the taste for more subtile comments on ruling, world building or balance impact. But for now I see no intent to release official product in this sense. Balance will stay as it is, and world building will remain lightly attached to phb rules.

Parmandur · Apr 27, 2021

Xetheral said:
Out of curiousity, if it had instead been written "melee-weapon attack" would you still consider it a contradiction in terms to make a "melee-weapon attack" with a thrown weapon?

I would find it pretty silly and gamey sounding, yeah, but it would make some base level of sense if explained, though I would probably be prone to misinterpret it the other way then. When I look at "melee weapon attack" I cannot see it as anything other than two adjectives separately modifying the noun, both being necessary for the condition. Unarmed fighting being a weapon attack doesn't bother me much, either, since fists can be a deadly weapon.

Parmandur · Apr 27, 2021

It strikes me, @Charlaquin that another aspect might be that Crawford has mentally pivoted towards 6E as the solution to repeat questions at this point, as it is probably closer now to the end than the beginning of the edition. I recall from one interview he did with Greg Tito that Crawford is actually keeping a running document of clarifications needed in the event of a 6E based on all the questions that he gets. I don't expect that a new edition would be a radical transformation, but a synthesis of the thesis : antithesis of the 5E core rules : audience response is probably warranted at some point.

Xetheral · Apr 27, 2021

Parmandur said:
I would find it pretty silly and gamey sounding, yeah, but it would make some base level of sense if explained, though I would probably be prone to misinterpret it the other way then. When I look at "melee weapon attack" I cannot see it as anything other than two adjectives separately modifying the noun, both being necessary for the condition. Unarmed fighting being a weapon attack doesn't bother me much, either, since fists can be a deadly weapon.

Then I'm glad your intuition and designer intent lined up in this case.

Obviously I have merely anecdotal data on how often "melee weapon attack" is misunderstood in practice, but I've definitely had multiple new players be confused about how attacking with a melee weapon does not necessarily qualify as a "melee weapon attack". I've also had new players with editing/writing backgrounds flag the potential ambiguity preemptively, even before they understood the gameplay implications. (Rage gives a bonus to "melee weapon attacks" and is the first-listed ability in the first-listed class, so it's not too surprising to me that new players are still reading closely at that point.)

Parmandur · Apr 27, 2021

Xetheral said:
Then I'm glad your intuition and designer intent lined up in this case.

Obviously I have merely anecdotal data on how often "melee weapon attack" is misunderstood in practice, but I've definitely had multiple new players be confused about how attacking with a melee weapon does not necessarily qualify as a "melee weapon attack". I've also had new players with editing/writing backgrounds flag the potential ambiguity preemptively, even before they understood the gameplay implications. (Rage gives a bonus to "melee weapon attacks" and is the first-listed ability in the first-listed class, so it's not too surprising to me that new players are still reading closely at that point.)

It has literally never come up in game. I had seen that people had some issue with the usage but had trouble seeign the confusion, thank you for clarifying the point for me.

doctorbadwolf · Apr 27, 2021

Xetheral said:
To my knowledge, "melee-weapon attack" appears nowhere in the rules, so unless you know differently, I believe your claim that both phrases are used differently in the text to be false.

Deer lord I was clearly referring to “melee weapon attack” and “attack with a melee weapon”. Don’t be obtuse. This is exactly the type of obtuse pedantry that causes these arguments.

Xetheral said:
Jeremy Crawford has said so explicitly. The Sage Advice Compendium says: "Here’s a bit of wording minutia: we would write “melee-weapon attack” if we meant an attack with a melee weapon." This confirms that the designers intended the interpretation of the rules to depend on the lack of a hyphen. (Which, as I noted in my post, is technically correct English, but not well suited for being unambiguously understood.)

No, it does not mean that. It just means that Jeremy can be snarky when pointing out that they are quite aware of how to use words correctly.

The rule is clear without ever bringing that into the question.

Charlaquin · Apr 27, 2021

Parmandur said:
It strikes me, @Charlaquin that another aspect might be that Crawford has mentally pivoted towards 6E as the solution to repeat questions at this point, as it is probably closer now to the end than the beginning of the edition. I recall from one interview he did with Greg Tito that Crawford is actually keeping a running document of clarifications needed in the event of a 6E based on all the questions that he gets. I don't expect that a new edition would be a radical transformation, but a synthesis of the thesis : antithesis of the 5E core rules : audience response is probably warranted at some point.

Yeah, that’s likely playing a role, though I doubt it was much of a factor when the shift first happened.

tetrasodium · Apr 27, 2021

doctorbadwolf said:
Deer lord I was clearly referring to “melee weapon attack” and “attack with a melee weapon”. Don’t be obtuse. This is exactly the type of obtuse pedantry that causes these arguments.

No, it does not mean that. It just means that Jeremy can be snarky when pointing out that they are quite aware of how to use words correctly.

The rule is clear without ever bringing that into the question.

I feel like past editions had a simple & easy solution to avoiding this problem

4e was even more explicit about specific wordings

Not defining things in order to create ambiguity where it's not needed in persuit of "natural language"is not an improvement over 4e's maybe too technical nature

doctorbadwolf · Apr 27, 2021

tetrasodium said:
I feel like past editions had a simple & easy solution to avoiding this problem

View attachment 136182
View attachment 136183
4e was even more explicit about specific wordings
View attachment 136184
View attachment 136185

Not defining things in order to create ambiguity where it's not needed in persuit of "natural language"is not an improvement over 4e's maybe too technical nature

I disagree. IMO it is a huge improvement, even as someone who loves 4e.

3.5s 800 individual types of attacks was a PITA that I couldn’t be paid to go back to.

Parmandur · Apr 28, 2021

tetrasodium said:
I feel like past editions had a simple & easy solution to avoiding this problem

View attachment 136182
View attachment 136183
4e was even more explicit about specific wordings
View attachment 136184
View attachment 136185

Not defining things in order to create ambiguity where it's not needed in persuit of "natural language"is not an improvement over 4e's maybe too technical nature

You...think 3E is...more clear...? Is that really what we are going with here?

D&D 5E On rulings, rules, and Twitter, or: How Sage Advice Changed

Krachek

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Parmandur

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Parmandur

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Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush

Parmandur

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

tetrasodium

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Parmandur

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