jmartkdr2
Hero
2 is more than one.
The fighter is replacing basic attack with basic attack +6d6 fire, or almost an entire fireball, at least once per turn.
Have you played with high level fighters?
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?
- Thread starter DND_Reborn
- Start date
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
2 is a frequency. 'Does more' isn't about frequency but about the combination of power with it's frequency.
It's not really anywhere near a fireball. Some overly simplistic starting math.
6d6 @ 60% accuracy
=21*.6 + 21*.05 (crit) = +13.65 Damage per turn
8d6 @ 60% chance for failed save (half damage on success)
= 28*.6 + 28/2*.4 = 22.4 per target
A safe assumption would be 3 targets for the fireball.
That's 67.2 Damage per fireball!
67.2/13.65 = 4.92 ~ 5 turns to come out to the power of a single fireball. You get on average 4.5 fireballs per day. That's about 22.5 turns before a +2d6 weapon with a 3 attack character is going to reasonably outpoerform a wand of fireballs in damage (solely coming from the magic item).
I guess we should technically subtract out the 16.5 * .06 + 16.5*.05 = 8.25 damage that a firebolt would do those turns if we weren't casting fireball. Updating the math this becomes 4.3 rounds of attacks per fireball. That's still 19.4 turns.
Last edited:
One the 5e Treasure tables,, armor, weapons, and shields show up double the chances of rods, staves, and wands. Some with assorted fighter items and assorted wizard items.
Adventure writers have even higher bias even in 5e.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
I must ask though - assuming random magic item tables what are the chances the magic weapon dropped is the type the fighters build calls for based on fighting style/feats/shield use/flavor/etc. Things like finding a +1 dagger when using great weapons or a +1 longsword when you are focusing on dex.
\
On top of the weapon's base damage you also appear to have omitted the fighter's strength or dex mod that gets added to each attack. That could be anywhere from 1d6+5 with a short sword to 2d6+5 for a greatsword. being dropped from each attack in an extra attack chain. The actual hit rate tends to be quite a bit above 60% too.
On top of the weapon's base damage you also appear to have omitted the fighter's strength or dex mod that gets added to each attack. That could be anywhere from 1d6+5 with a short sword to 2d6+5 for a greatsword. being dropped from each attack in an extra attack chain. The actual hit rate tends to be quite a bit above 60% too.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Seems to me that if you are comparing the impact of magic items, you look at how much more the magic item adds to what they are already doing without the magic item. So the mod damage nor the basic 2d6 greatsword damage should be considered here. Only the extra 2d6 fire damage should be counted.
The resulting conclusion (see previous math) is that a wand of fireballs is comparable in impact to a flametongue. This implies that adding these kinds of magic items doesn't actually minimize any gaps between the overall power of the fighter and the wizard.
well that is depends on the weapon spread the DM uses. In 5e, the DM mostly chooses which weapon to plant when you roll +1 weapon or frost brand.
However rod, staffs, and wands are specific mostly and shared among 6 classes with different attunement requirement..
A random rolled or adventure ran fighter will very often better equipped than a wizard.
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
I mean if the assumption is that the GM is catering magic weapons to their fighters that the fighters will be better equipped I totally agree. But doing that is tantamount to assuming it's going to be handled in the way that most benefits your position and then using that assumption to justify your position about magic items benefiting fighters more. It seems a bit circular.
If you are actually randomly rolling for the weapon that the magic item is attached to as well I don't think that's been demonstrated anywhere. Personally I'm very skeptical of that conclusion.
But ppint is that the DMG tells you to determine the type of weapon or do it randomly. However to my knowledge there no table to roll for weapons. So it's up to the DM to screw over the Fighter.
If you are a greatweapon fighter and your DM gives you a +1 sickle, the 100% on the DM.
This is different from boots,cloaks, hats, rings rods, staves, wands etc. For them, the Treasure table and Adventure writers directly screw you over.
wand of fireball is used instead of something else so you don't include the cantrip damage that could otherwise be done. A flametongue is pure addition to the base+ability mod so you do add them. If you don't believe me ask if any fighter would use a flame tongue that did not have a weapon die on top of the 2d6 and did not include their ability mod in the damage instead of something like a 2d6+5 greatsword with their 20 strength or 1d8+5 rapier with their 20 dex. It's really easy to make the numbers look favorable when you leave out h8.5-12 damage from each of the attacks made in a chain. A level 11 caster with firebolt does 3d10 ( avg 16.5), that 16.5 points of damage is the opportunity cost of using something like a wand of fireball because unlike the flametongue it's one or the other.
Use this to help you, the math does not work at all close to how you are suggesting.
Similar Threads
- Poll
- Poll
