Moon Knight - SPOILERS

Umbran · Apr 22, 2022

Tonguez said:
Other god-like beings:

Celestials and Eternals are not true gods, so discounting them.

Again, define "true gods".

The MCU has not solidly defined what Celestials are - how can we say they are not "true gods". In the comics, they are a direct creation of the embodiment of the First Universe, that came before existence as any mortal knows it. A creature from outside creation itself is not enough to qualify as "true god"?

And your list of god like beings leaves out Galactus, The Phoenix Force, the Beyonder(s), the Living Tribunal, the Stranger, Death, Mephisto, Agomatto, Cyttorak, the various Cosmic Cubes when they achieve sentience, Eternity, Infinity, the In-Betweener, Knull (the god of symbiotes), Lord Chaos and Master Order, and the list goes on. Marvel Comics has a whole truckloads of cosmic beings that are embodiments of concepts.

There's also embodiments of each universe that came before - the First Firmament created the Celestials, but there is the Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth. The Sixth merged his essence with a man named Galen, to become Galactus in the (current) seventh incarnation of the Universe.

Okay, actually the current is the Eighth. But the Eighth is really the seventh that was broken, and then reassembled by Reed Richards.

Hey, Reed can reassemble whole multiverses. Is he not a god?

Tonguez · Apr 22, 2022

Umbran said:
Again, define "true gods".

The MCU has not solidly defined what Celestials are - how can we say they are not "true gods". In the comics, they are a direct creation of the embodiment of the First Universe, that came before existence as any mortal knows it. A creature from outside creation itself is not enough to qualify as "true god"?

And your list of god like beings leaves out Galactus, The Phoenix Force, the Beyonder(s), the Living Tribunal, the Stranger, Death, Mephisto, Agomatto, Cyttorak, the various Cosmic Cubes when they achieve sentience, Eternity, Infinity, the In-Betweener, Knull (the god of symbiotes), Lord Chaos and Master Order, and the list goes on. Marvel Comics has a whole truckloads of cosmic beings that are embodiments of concepts.

There's also embodiments of each universe that came before - the First Firmament created the Celestials, but there is the Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth. The Sixth merged his essence with a man named Galen, to become Galactus in the (current) seventh incarnation of the Universe.

Okay, actually the current is the Eighth. But the Eighth is really the seventh that was broken, and then reassembled by Reed Richards.

Hey, Reed can reassemble whole multiverses. Is he not a god?

I only included those who have appeared in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, so yes Marvel comics has many more but we‘ll have to wait until they get a Movie/TV show to know what they are in MCU canon.

I did consider putting Hive

Celestials I discount because they arent true gods from a Earth-based pantheon and MCU has established that Eternals are artificial constructs

Umbran · Apr 22, 2022

Tonguez said:
Celestials I discount because they arent true gods from a Earth-based pantheon

Um, dude. There's an entire universe/multiverse out there. Many of the MCU heroes are not from Earth. Presumably the gods are not themselves from Earth either.

Tonguez said:
and MCU has established that Eternals are artificial constructs

So? Everyone has to come from somewhere. Gods are not bound by biology, are they? Why can't a god just make a god?

I mean, you still haven't told us what a "true god" even is. You appear willing to exclude entities from the category without defining the category. How does that work?

And, the people of Ta-Lo are in danger from weapons made my mere mortals. That's godlike?

Tonguez · Apr 22, 2022

Umbran said:
Um, dude. There's an entire universe/multiverse out there. Many of the MCU heroes are not from Earth. Presumably the gods are not themselves from Earth either.

when you say many, you mean One since Thor is the only non-human Avenger. (and Guardians of the Galaxy is just a fun diversion)
and yes I’m a biased Earth-centric partisan and only care for Earths Mightiest Heroes - and thus only for Earths gods

Umbran said:
I mean, you still haven't told us what a "true god" even is. You appear willing to exclude entities from the category without defining the category. How does that work?

And, the people of Ta-Lo are in danger from weapons made my mere mortals. That's godlike?

also maintaining my Earth-centrism a true god is one historically worshipped as gods by humans who isnt an ‘Eternal construct’

The people of Ta-Lo fit the model of Chinese immortals (Xian)

but until we get a definitive answer from Marvel, its all speculative

pukunui · Apr 22, 2022

For me, I guess the difference is between beings from another planet and beings from another dimension. The Norse "gods" are the former. It seems like the Egyptian gods might be the latter.

Umbran · Apr 22, 2022

Tonguez said:
when you say many, you mean One since Thor is the only non-human Avenger. (and Guardians of the Galaxy is just a fun diversion)

Yeah, so if you are going to dismiss and cherry pick anything that, this isn't a conversation worth having.

Umbran · Apr 22, 2022

pukunui said:
For me, I guess the difference is between beings from another planet and beings from another dimension. The Norse "gods" are the former. It seems like the Egyptian gods might be the latter.

Howard the Duck technically comes from an extra-dimensional planet called Duckworld. Is he a god? Is it the planet-ness or the dimension-ness that really matters? Why is origin in another dimension relevant? Is it just an arbitrary choice>

We should note that the Asgardians don't come from a "planet" as far as we've seen. It was like an island in space, barely an asteroid, without a planetary body per se.

We can only guess where all that water that eternally falls off into space actually comes from. And it doesn't orbit a star, but has lighting anyway. This body in space raises many questions, due to its unnatural form and behavior. Does this look like a world an intelligent species is going to evolve on? Or does it suggest that the Asgardians settled here, but are actually originally from elsewhere?

And, Asgard is linked to the other worlds of the Nine Realms through Yggdrasil, which clearly has extra-dimensional properties...

Ryujin · Apr 22, 2022

Umbran said:
Howard the Duck technically comes from an extra-dimensional planet called Duckworld. Is he a god? Is it the planet-ness or the dimension-ness that really matters? Why is origin in another dimension relevant? Is it just an arbitrary choice>

We should note that the Asgardians don't come from a "planet" as far as we've seen. It was like an island in space, barely an asteroid, without a planetary body per se.

View attachment 155858

We can only guess where all that water that eternally falls off into space actually comes from. And it doesn't orbit a star, but has lighting anyway. This body in space raises many questions, due to its unnatural form and behavior. Does this look like a world an intelligent species is going to evolve on? Or does it suggest that the Asgardians settled here, but are actually originally from elsewhere?

And, Asgard is linked to the other worlds of the Nine Realms through Yggdrasil, which clearly has extra-dimensional properties...

Reminds me of the joke, "Ireland gave bagpipes to Scotland as a joke, but Scotland hasn't gotten the punchline yet."

Substitute Pratchett, Discworld, and Asgard.

pukunui · Apr 22, 2022

Umbran said:
Howard the Duck technically comes from an extra-dimensional planet called Duckworld. Is he a god? Is it the planet-ness or the dimension-ness that really matters? Why is origin in another dimension relevant? Is it just an arbitrary choice>

We should note that the Asgardians don't come from a "planet" as far as we've seen. It was like an island in space, barely an asteroid, without a planetary body per se.

View attachment 155858

We can only guess where all that water that eternally falls off into space actually comes from. And it doesn't orbit a star, but has lighting anyway. This body in space raises many questions, due to its unnatural form and behavior. Does this look like a world an intelligent species is going to evolve on? Or does it suggest that the Asgardians settled here, but are actually originally from elsewhere?

And, Asgard is linked to the other worlds of the Nine Realms through Yggdrasil, which clearly has extra-dimensional properties...

Honestly, I’m still trying to figure it out myself.

Yes, I know that Asgard isn’t a typical planet. It’s more like Discworld! But I liked the idea that these “gods from space” are just aliens with technology that’s sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic. I also like the idea that the Nine Realms are all planets in physical space connected by a wormhole, with the Bifrost being some fancy magitech way of traveling through the wormhole.

I guess I don’t have to have all ancient human gods be the same. They don’t have to all be aliens from other planets. I suppose doing that with the Egyptian gods would be too much like Stargate.

Anyway, I don’t have all the answers, and I’m still trying to articulate what it is I mean, so I apologize for any confusion on my part.

Umbran · Apr 22, 2022

pukunui said:
Honestly, I’m still trying to figure it out myself.

And that is 100% okay with me. "I don't know," should always be an acceptable answer.

I think a point to realize is the Marvel Universe, Cinamatic or otherwise, is not a place with a single consistent set of metaphysical truths or laws. It is a place with a mishmash of stuff that seemed cool when they were writing it, across decades fo tiem and dozens of authors!

Therefore, I suggest "god" in the Marvel Universe is not a statement about the entity, so much as a statement about the relationship between the entity and normal humanity.

Moon Knight - SPOILERS

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