Does TSR3 Have Nazi Connections?

Steampunkette said:

When you lock up a bunch of White Supremacists what you wind up with is more well connected White Supremacists.

Click to expand...

well connected to what? people in prisons?

Steampunkette said:

Same thing with Nazis or any other bigot.

See, the problem with "Teaching Tolerance" is that they have to want to -learn- to be Tolerant. But that's almost never the case.

Click to expand...

people are not born evil. people are taught evil. You need to teach people GOOD too. Yes there are points that people may be too far gone to be helped and need to be locked away (or worse) but the idea is to try to get to as many as possible BEFORE that.

Steampunkette said:

Sure. Maybe you can talk a handful off the ledge. Maybe you can work with some.

But. The amount of harm that is caused while you delicately try to work that person into less of a dumpster fire is massive.

Click to expand...

and the amount of harm they cause is reduced in some case negated when you help them back to the light.

Steampunkette said:

Meanwhile, you punch a Nazi and they learn that Nazism isn't accepted within arm's reach of you.

Click to expand...

and what... they punch back, or worse? what happens if they have suppior force?

Steampunkette said:

Everyone punches the Nazis and they learn there's nowhere that is safe to be a Nazi. That they have to hide it. That it's something society considers to be unacceptable.

Click to expand...

Hidden cults of Nazis are not much better than outspoken ones.

Steampunkette said:

Dick Spencer stopped showing up in public for a reason. His political aspirations collapsed for a reason. His connections dried up. His wife left him. All for a Reason.

And that reason was a right hand to the side of the head followed by a strong elbow.

Click to expand...

and not everyone is Spencer

Steampunkette said:

The amount of "Fighting back creates more Nazis!", here, is just disturbing.

Click to expand...

The Red Army and the men landing in Normandy from the Western Allies certainly disagree with the above statement. They fought back, and destroyed the Nazis.

British PM Neville Chamberlain would also disagree, seeing as his policy of Appeasement leading up to WW2 breaking out was a dismal failure.

The liberals in the Weimar republic also tried a peaceful solution, and they were the first to get it in the neck (along with the much more antagonistic Socialists who were fighting the Nazis). I just cant imagine how rolling over to Hitler or 'peaceful debate and protest' is much of a weapon, when your opponents are.... well Nazis.

That said most of the 'Nazis' these days are just incel edgelords that spend too much time on 4chan getting brainwashed by memes, Kremlin misinformation and conspiracy theories (which is clearly where our good incel edgelord friend the topic of this thread clearly got his ideas from).

Of course the issue then is many of these incels actually get fully brainwashed and then we have livestreamed mass murders on 8Kun, or people storming the US Capital seeking to overthrow a democracy.

What a time to be alive.

Horwath said:

Do you want more nazis? Because this is how you get more nazis!

This kind of rhetoric will only drive people that have some nazi sympathy completely into their camp.

Hate speech is still only speech and you can battle it with good speech. Not censorship.

To quote GRRM: When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you are only telling the world that you fear what he might say.

Click to expand...

Just to be clear, that pacifism. It's fine. I'll gladly fight for you to be able to use it.

The problem is, Nazis do not subscribe to your enlightened viewpoint. They take advantage of society's attempts to negotiate by following all the rules when standing in the light, and using violence in the shadows. They are bad faith actors.

Facts are, it's really easy for people to talk about the use of high-morality choices when it's not you they are aiming at. When family members and friends start disappearing in the night, and your neighbors start putting on white sheets and hoods at the local lodge meeting? Makes that attitude a touch less philosophical.

And it's NOT censorship. It's repercussions. It's hate speech that condones and excites violence. If that comes home to roost in a way they do not like, I cannot really complain.

But sadly, the idea you get more nazis by removing them? That's perhaps moderately right. On the other hand, you can just start removing them faster, and make up the difference.

And for the record, my grandfather's parents were German. You have NEVER met a man with more loathing for an ideology than him. They were his one exception to his pacifistic ways.

Flamestrike said:

The liberals in the Weimar republic also tried a peaceful solution, and they were the first to get it in the neck (along with the much more antagonistic Socialists who were fighting the Nazis). I just cant imagine how rolling over to Hitler or 'peaceful debate and protest' is much of a weapon, when your opponents are.... well Nazis.

Click to expand...

i don't know why people think "we should talk those on the fence back to there senses and argue against there insane evil politics" some how also means "never go to war, let there soldiers win"...

you can BOTH support physical violence when needed AND disagree on when it is needed.

the entire "if you want to try to help people AND stop the nazis, you sound a lot like a nazi" always weirds me out.

Flamestrike said:

That said most of the 'Nazis' these days are just incel edgelords that spend too much time on 4chan getting brainwashed by memes, Kremlin misinformation and conspiracy theories (which is clearly where our good incel edgelord friend the topic of this thread clearly got his ideas from).

Click to expand...

and those people need to be talked to. they need to be reached out to BEFORE they go too far. use your words and show them a better way, don't punch them and make them just go deeper into a hidden cabal of evil.

Flamestrike said:

Of course the issue then is many of these incels actually get fully brainwashed and then we have livestreamed mass murders on 8Kun, or people storming the US Capital seeking to overthrow a democracy.

Click to expand...

and again when the time comes I 100% support the need for people to physically stand up to them.

Flamestrike said:

What a time to be alive.

Click to expand...

aggreed

We will scare the Nazis away with the terrifying sight of our soft, soft underbellies.

The take away from the Holocaust was that they mean what they say, so our fighting nazis is self-defense, nothing wrong with protecting oneself, and one's family. That is pretty much without question.

Vaalingrade said:

We will scare the Nazis away with the terrifying sight of our soft, soft underbellies.

Click to expand...

Be good....
I mean, it was funny, but stop that.

FoolishFrost said:

Facts are, it's really easy for people to talk about the use of high-morality choices when it's not you they are aiming at. When family members and friends start disappearing in the night, and your neighbors start putting on white sheets and hoods at the local lodge meeting? Makes that attitude a touch less philosophical.

Click to expand...

this is just insulting.
plenty of marginalized people are non or less violent EVEN when they know they are in danger. Plenty of people who love and support those marginalized targeted people BOTH want to talk them out of being Nazis, AND are willing (and in some cases able) to engage in more physical things if that comes...

FoolishFrost said:

And it's NOT censorship. It's repercussions. It's hate speech that condones and excites violence. If that comes home to roost in a way they do not like, I cannot really complain.

Click to expand...

that is partially correct. When the state and legal system does it. I don't want BATMAN in real life. I don't want people vigilante style chooseing who is 'wrong enough to get punched' and I VERY much don't want PUNISHER in real life. I don't want vigilante style chooseing who is is 'wrong enough to get shot'

I clicked the link and looked at all the pics and watched all the videos. There's no doubt in my mind that it adds up to a clear picture of a very troubled and hateful individual, and that shining light upon this is on balance a good thing to do.

What I want to speak to is the discussion about how to respond.

There's some support being expressed here for vigilante violence against far-right individuals.

What I want to contribute to the discussion is to repeat the classic observation, originally derived from neo-Marxist academic cultural studies, that (I'm paraphrasing) "conjunctural analysis must precede the development of political strategy and tactics"—a fancy way of saying that what you decide to do should depend on a clear-eyed view of the present sociohistorical situation.

That situation varies geographically. It's not the same everywhere. And on the internet it's not always obvious where everyone is located. So maybe where you live, provoking violence against ideological extremists is strategically and tactically sound.

But let me tell you, as a resident of a so-called "purple state" in the USA, here is my pithy conjunctural analysis: the present situation here is one in which my nation is in real danger of descending into a "hot" civil war in the next two to five years. If this happens, there is virtually zero chance that the "good guys" will win, because the "good guys" are massively outgunned. And if that happens, I daresay almost everyone using this website, wherever they are located and whatever their identity, would suffer from it to some degree, directly or indirectly—and some of them would suffer immensely.

Therefore, in the present US conjuncture, bolstering minimal social cohesion throughout all demographics—the mere norm that it would be unjustified, terrible, and fruitless to start waging literal war on the "other side"—must be a top priority; and, dangerously, this idea is not being bolstered, rather it is being quite knowingly dismissed and destroyed by nearly all quarters, for a wide variety of reasons. This is, in my view, especially naive when it comes from the US left; championing left political violence in the USA today requires some combination of ignorance and irrationality, given the current power differential between the right and the left here.

This does not have to mean "appeasement" of the far right. It does have to mean refusing to escalate physical violence or otherwise contribute to accelerating the ongoing radicalization of heretofore "moderate" conservative demographics.

GMforPowergamers said:

this assumes people are 'born' or 'always' evil. that no one was ever persuaded by evil. that no one ever started down a dark path and was brought back.

Click to expand...

No. It doesn't. It assumes that person was already on the Nazi Pipeline and just wasn't open about it. That they're way down that Dark Path and just carrying enough light that you didn't know.

There's nothing in that statement you quoted that has jack squat to do with "Born Evil" or Nature over Nurture or anything of the sort.

This is a Strawman.

GMforPowergamers said:

that person that said you shouldn't have hit them MIGHT be a nazi, but they might also be someone that I could talk to and show that as much as the fistfight was a bit much, that the nazi DID start it with proposing violence against others.

Click to expand...

Great! You talk them off the ledge, I'll punch the people actively and openly calling for my death, sending me death threats, and generally trying to convince others that I don't deserve the same rights as anyone else as part of their continued political pogrom to... My death.

And the death of everyone who isn't like them.

If that person ISN'T a Nazi they're not going to BECOME a Nazi over a fistfight, and you can still try and talk them down. Good luck. If you CAN'T talk them down, it's not because of the fistfight, it's because they were already a Nazi.

You don't go "Uh! You can't hit him! He was just talking! Therefore DEATH TO ALL MINORITIES is my totally rational political swing in response to this situation!"

And the idea that you could is laughable.

GMforPowergamers said:

Yes the world need soldiers, the world needs cops. The world needs people who are willing to punch Nazi's... but the world also needs psychologists and aid workers and organizers and peaceful protesters... and people willing to talk, people who can pull people back from the brink.

Click to expand...

The world doesn't need Soldiers or Cops but that's a whole other argument.

Peaceful Protest works against GOVERNMENTS and BUSINESSES where public opinion impacts ELECTIONS and PROFITS. Not Nazi jerkwads who don't currently have power. Peaceful Protests, for them, bring CAMERAS and the chance to present their horrible, terrible, evil views as being reasonable. "Both Sides" politics gives the Nazi Political Machine weight it should not, and does not, have.

Also Peaceful Protest doesn't work against Nazi Governments. Several people tried and got arrested, tried, convicted, and beheaded between breakfast and dinner of the same day.

GMforPowergamers said:

Have you ever noticed dispirit lone people are all evil? of course not. but alot of those evil people can convince dispirit lone people to join up...

Click to expand...

Look, friend, if you wanna try and save lone dispirit people from becoming Nazis that's fine. I'm never gonna try to stop you.

But I'm also gonna punch any lone dispirit person that becomes a Nazi. BECAUSE THEY'VE BECOME A NAZI. They've passed over the moral threshold at that point and as kind of a person as they could be, they get violence in response. And maybe that violence will shake them out of it. Maybe it won't.

But you do not get to tell people who are the targets of Bigotry not to fight back against bigotry by any means needed.

Sure stopped the Nazis for a long while after the whole world rose up and beat them down, together. Maybe it can work, again!

GMforPowergamers said:

well connected to what? people in prisons?

Click to expand...

People get out of prison. And then you've got White Supremacists from across the state (or however wide the net is for the population of that prison) talking to each other and organizing. Kind of like... Y'know.

Happens currently.

GMforPowergamers said:

people are not born evil. people are taught evil. You need to teach people GOOD too. Yes there are points that people may be too far gone to be helped and need to be locked away (or worse) but the idea is to try to get to as many as possible BEFORE that.

Click to expand...

This is still a Strawman.

GMforPowergamers said:

and the amount of harm they cause is reduced in some case negated when you help them back to the light.

Click to expand...

Great! For that guy. And the next guy over that you could never talk down if you spent 20 years gently debating him?

Needs to be shown he is not accepted in society with his horrible views. No debate. No discussion. No wheedling. Just kicked right out of society before his horror can spread further.

GMforPowergamers said:

and what... they punch back, or worse? what happens if they have suppior force?

Click to expand...

Then either I die a Martyr or people come to my aid.

In either case, the Nazi is shown that his actions and ideas are invalid both by my violent response and the social or physical response of others.

But at least I'll have stood up to Nazis in my life, rather than passively letting them spread their hatred. Or, worse, given some measure of validity to their position by trying to debate it.

GMforPowergamers said:

Hidden cults of Nazis are not much better than outspoken ones.

Click to expand...

Sure they are. Hidden cults of Nazis can't do much of anything when tipping their hand means society immediately turns against them, violently.

And since any of their political aspirations generally involve tipping their hands... well.

Don't get me wrong. I certainly think we should hunt down Nazis and other bigots in every institution we have, like the US Military did, and the FBI tried to do to our police forces (But got told to shove it). I think we should Twitter-Ban and Facebook-Ban and generally Ban Nazis from literally every aspect of society...

But I don't have that power. And while I may advocate for such things, I don't do it while trying to "Save the Good Nazi" along the way.

GMforPowergamers said:

and not everyone is Spencer

Click to expand...

Yaaaay... Don't care.

Accepting Nazis and other forms of Supremacy or Bigotry into public forums for discussion isn't going to stop them. It empowers them. Gathering them all up and trying to teach them to have empathy for other people is a nice theory, but in practice it just results in the Nazi feeling like more people agree with him.

Nazis have to be pushed out of society. They have to be shut down. And in person? That generally means violence because the Nazi will refuse to leave society.

There's only one good answer to Nazis.