D&D 5E What, if anything, bothers you about certain casters/spells at your table?

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Originally I was thinking of this thread only in terms of spells that "ruin" exploration or become "must always prepare/cast" type spells, which as I said, is not an issue in my experience mostly based on my playstyle and current set of players.

But there are things that bother me, like. . .

I am not a fan of at-will cantrips (esp. damaging ones) at all. I don't think they break the game or anything, but aesthetically I think they undermine the "magic" of magic and make it into a repeatable infinite resource like a common sword and more reliable than arrows (which can run out)!
At times I pondered creating a full fantasy RPG of my own.

And in it, cantrips are in spells. You cast the spell and get a small selection of cantrips for 24 hours. To level the cantrip, you have touse higher level slots.

Casting Wizardy gives you light, mage hand, and prestidigitation for 1 day/slot.
Casting War Magic gives one offensive cantrip like firebolt or ray of frost for every level of slot you cast it at.

Classes based around cantrips would know the spells automatically and be able to cast it once for free.
This also means that half casters can snag cantrips if they wish to spend slots.

So your wizard can opt to save slots and run crossbows.
Or you can cast mage armor, wizardry,and war magic and have no spell lotss and only rituals at level 1.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I think it’s important to note… the differences between 4e defenders, strikers, controllers and leaders were vast. They weren’t samey. It’s just the at will powers and attack powers mostly were samey. Basically everything was 1W or 2W or XW + minor effect and there were countless powers like this with just a few gems that were different - at least for early levels. IMO of course.
If people use powers that feel the same 80% of the time, the game's going to feel similar.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I think it’s important to note… the differences between 4e defenders, strikers, controllers and leaders were vast. They weren’t samey. It’s just the at will powers and attack powers mostly were samey. Basically everything was 1W or 2W or XW + minor effect and there were countless powers like this with just a few gems that were different - at least for early levels. IMO of course.
4e was rushed. The beginning books needed more time in layout and aesthetic.

By the time the designers figured out was to really differentiate one class or a role from another power wise, the people who complained about sameyness have left.

Martial, Arcane, and Divine powers followed a clear pattern until their power books were published.
Primal and Psionics broke the molds more but were focused on last.

But that's the case with all RPGs that aren't math sims.
You'll never design a game long enough to get the kinks out an be able to sell it.
The relation of cantrips, spell slots, shot rest magic, and rituals in 5e is proof of that.
 
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M_Natas

Hero
That's the advantage of playing live at a table with your friends... there are already so many other things going on around the table with people talking, eating snacks, using the bathroom, that there's no "continuous game flow" to worry about. ;)
Tststs, at my tables their us discipline and order!
.
.
.
Until it all devolves into chaos ^^
 

Hussar

Legend
I think it’s important to note… the differences between 4e defenders, strikers, controllers and leaders were vast. They weren’t samey. It’s just the at will powers and attack powers mostly were samey. Basically everything was 1W or 2W or XW + minor effect and there were countless powers like this with just a few gems that were different - at least for early levels. IMO of course.
I think the important point to remember is that there were countless powers. And many of the classes played nothing like each other. A Warlord played nothing like an Avenger which was totally different from a Wizard. The funny thing is, 5e only really has 3 formats for classes - with each class gaining, more or less, exactly the same sort of power at a given level - yet we talk about how 5e creates vastly different characters. Meanwhile 4e had thousands of powers spread across 40 some classes, but, each one was the same?

And here we are over ten years later with people still banging the same tired old edition war drum. It's really tiresome.

It's funny. I got really taken to task recently for not accepting someone's actual play experience. Yet, ten years on, despite hundreds of posters claiming that they are not having this experience of sameness that is claimed, our experiences are discounted and ignored. :erm:
 

M_Natas

Hero
So we'd prefer a game without reactions? Without opportunity attacks? Without legendary actions? (maybe those are OK, they don't interrupt the turn as much...)

I'm curious about the psychology at work there. Reactions offer some off-turn options, some way for characters to stay vigilant and reactive as the enemy does things, a way to encourage seeing combat in your mind's eye as a changeable milieu even as the rules adjudicate that milieu on a round basis, etc. It can be a nice moment of power for a player when their off-turn action stops something potentially devastating from happening to the party.

It does shout "Stop!", but I guess...what's so bad about a player yelling "Stop!"? That's half the appeal of a 4e Fighter!
For me it depends. Like - an attack of opportunity usually doesn't change the outcome of the previous action, but adds to it.
But if you look at it, an attack of opportunity has the same "problem" as counterspell.
Because with movement you usually say "I go this way". But for attack of opportunity to work, you need to break it down into - I'm leaving the reach of that Creature- does that trigger an attack of opportunity? No? Okay, I continue my movement.

The difference to counterspell is, an attack of opportunity is something everybody has in their mind, because it happens regularly, everybody can do that from level 1, there are several abilities that add to the attack of opportunity, while counterspell is niche. Only counterspell needs the time frame between declaring to cast a spell and saying what spell it is to cast and no other ability interacts with the distinction of "declaring to cast and naming a spell".

But actually, I'm fine with counterspell and Attacks of Opportunity, even so I overpower counterspell by already declaring what spell to cast.

Silvery Barbs, Shield and especially Lucky, so everything that retcons a roll result, is what grundsätzlich my gear.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'll admit I've never had much issue with Counterspell. Mostly because I almost never use enemy casters. Too complicated most of the time. So, the players wind up taking Counterspell and never actually using it. I think in my Candlekeep campaign, it came up in one, maybe two adventures? Maybe?

But, on the point about classes being similar, one thing I really noticed the first time I played a Land Circle druid was that this was basically a wizard with a themed spell list. I mean, I'm actually casting iconic wizard spells - Invisibility as I recall. Because so many of the iconic spells show up on other classes, I'm not sure how confident I am in saying that 5e makes all the classes really distinct.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Counterspell is just boring.

You'd think the people who also have MTG under their roof would look down the hallway and use it for inspiration on abjuration.

I mean there could be dozens of counterspells in D&D but we got the boring 1st edition UU.
 

Starfox

Hero
In the end I banned Silvery Barbs. Those who know what this does will know the reason, even if you don't agree with me.
I don't understand why people think shield is so good.
I may have missed previous discussions on this topic in this thread.

My problem with Shield is that it is most useful for classes that already wear armor. If you have a good AC, Shield makes you essentially hit proof. If you have a poor C, Shield reduces damage by around 50%. This is why people multiclass to get it.

IMC I modified shield so that it gives an AC of 20, regardless of what your AC was before. This reverses the above, it is now almost useless for armor-wearers and quite powerful for those who do not wear armor. I'm considering letting it be upcast, with +1 AC per additional spell level, but not gone that far yet.
 

GrimCo

Adventurer
Never had problem with either Shield or Silvery Barbs.

Yes, Shield can make someone with good AC hit proof for one turn. At the cost of 25% of 1st level spell slots. Not all classes have ability to recover spells. If you multiclass, and you get ability to recover spells, it's still underwhelming.

Same with Silvery Barbs, you effectively give someone disadvantage (remember, they can roll lower and still succeed, or they can re-roll and get higher roll then before, so they still succeed) and yourself or someone advantage.

Both are good spells, but nothing so OP and they do burn slots. And to be honest, if i need to avoid getting hit, Shield is better than Silvery Barbs in most cases.
 

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