D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

So, just so we're clear here:

Your players are capable of looking at the world, of seeing what is in it, of touching things and rearranging things etc., without having to ask you what is true or not true first? I mean if they already asked you in the past (and remember) that still counts as having to ask you first.

Because that was kind of the point here. Players do not and cannot have information about the world until you, the GM, tell them. That is simply not the case when you go to the store. You can look at the aisles without needing to have an interpreter collect all of the information for you and then deliver it to you secondhand.

My players have reasonable knowledge that I think their characters would have in order to make reasonably informed decisions. They don't always know everything, knowing who the murderer is would kind of take the fun out of a murder mystery.

I create the world so they don't know everything. Just like I don't know what brands a grocery store will stock or whether or not they will have chocolate frosted sugar bombs cereal even if I've been there before. It's not an issue for my players, it's not an issue when I play.
 

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In real life, I'm not dependent on getting 100% of my information secondhand, and having every single one of my choices filtered through the judgment and evaluation of another person. I'm the one in control of how informed I am. Yes, I must sometimes (indeed, frequently!) trust the expertise of others--but I can review that expertise and judge entirely for myself whether it affords someone authority on a subject or not.
Exactly. If the DM was a holodeck, than of course it would be much easier to play in a fully-immersive, "react as the character" manner. But since even the best DM can only provide .001% of the feedback of a holodeck, we use other techniques instead.
 

Wasn't this supposed to be an example that might be at home in Apocalypse World play? (That's my recollection, but perhaps I've lost my grasp of this thread of the discussion.)

Proceeding from that premise, then I'm puzzled: because following the tracks, in AW, would prompt the GM to say something based on the rules and principles of the game - but this may or may not be an encounter with a potentially hostile group. That would depend on what actions the players declare for their PCs, whether those trigger player-side moves (eg Read a Sitch), what moves the GM makes, etc.

Or consider a different but non-map-and-key system: in Burning Wheel the attempt to follow the tracks might have to be resolved by rolling the dice (if there is something at stake), and the outcome of that would depend on the intent, and on success or failure, and in the latter case on how the GM choose to narrate the failure.
As I’ve said, it doesn’t have to be a hostile or combat encounter. A social encounter is an encounter. An exploration challenge is an encounter. If the players follow the tracks and discover a basket of perfectly normal kittens, that’s an encounter. If the GM plans it out ahead of time, it’s an encounter. If they decide GM decides what made the tracks only when and if the PCs actually track it down, that’s still an encounter.

And no, this works with any game, not just AW. In BW, if the players decide to follow the tracks and, die rolls and GM permitting, find out who or what made them, then that’s an encounter. If they decide to ignore the tracks and continue onwards, they have bypassed it.
 

I have. Several times.
Sorry missed this.
Party meets in a tavern. GM describes the tavern and notes that one of the patrons is an old man with one arm. This is understood by many old-school GMs as ample information for the party to know that the old man with one arm is an essential source of information that cannot be ignored. I--if I had not been explicitly told this by such GMs--would never have seen it as such, and would just have interpreted that old man as colorful background, a cool bit of set-dressing. These GMs have explicitly informed me that failing to talk to the one-armed old man would be a major--likely fatal--mistake.
Interesting. It is true Trad GMs have a variety of styles.
It then comes down to knowing your table, knowing your GM etc. This is very important.

However having said that, this is a good representation of some of the old narrative boxes which existed in the modules and it does indeed seem to follow some of that tradition where the most important information is distilled and provided. Now players may Q&A about the rest of the tavern, but the GM has done his duty in presenting the most pertinent information.
Furthermore, this kind of GMing I feel is akin to puzzle-solving, where you need to engage with the information given to get the next piece of the puzzle.

Wait, really?
Genuinely hold the phone here. I thought this level of collaboration was absolutely, positively unacceptable under any circumstances. Is that not the case?
I listed 2 options from the top of my head that could exist with 1 horn of your trilema.
I am open to the second option, it is NOT popular amongst the traditional way of GMing.
So this is me.

I mean I don't really have a very high opinion of "a menu of choices" as being the kind of sandbox folks here have insisted upon, but alright I guess. What does "encourage Q&A" mean? Like what do you do to do that? (This, at the very least, is something that would be personally, directly useful to me, because I have a player who profoundly struggles with brain-locks-up issues during play. Like I describe the scene and a potential problem to be resolved and half the time he genuinely cannot think of ANYTHING to say. At all, period--zip zero zilch nada, brain completely empty. When he does have ideas, they're great! But he locks up so often it can be a challenge to run the game for him, so literally ANYTHING you can tell me about how to encourage Q&A would be incredibly useful to me.)
Hmmm, this is a problem beyond the trilema it seems.

(i) After giving the menu of options, I'd go around the table and ask what their gut instinct is leaning towards - so do not single him out but leave him towards the last of the players being asked so that he can hear what others have to say and hopefully build on that. Maybe not at first but after a few times they gain their confidence/wings.
(ii) Have NPCs offer input or engage with him in conversation (try first person) which then forces him to answer back. NPCs are great as they bring it back into the fiction as opposed to the GM asking questions in the meta.
(iii) You can use INT checks and the like to offer clues, pull the player aside if you can and offer him information that only he knows for whatever reason which means he is forced to offer that information to the rest of the players, it gets him involved and elevates their importance in the party.
(iv) Have the players break into pairs and engage with each other as characters, offer "inspiration" or whatever else meta can be offered for interesting dialogue or cool roleplay.
(v) Lastly encourage by way of adding more colour to scene-framing, eye contact during play and asking him to narrate successes, describe his character's approach, tone, look etc - get him to speak at the table without the pressure of making decisions.

I was given to understand this was too much limitation, by a pretty significant degree. Is that not the case?
I do not think so.
I have a player to whom we have to repeat things over and over because he doesn't always pay attention or it becomes misinformation as soon as passes his ears, it is a joke at our table.
Repeating things, engaging with the players, correcting NOT THEIR ASSUMPTIONS but the facts and visual aids helps a lot.
In the session I referred to, the players had over a dozen options with a massive time constraint, each choices came with their own ramifications - the players actually split, 3 went to the Underdark (practical choice in their eyes) and one is on his way to Nine Hells (due to personal bond).
 
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Yet I find Ironsworn quite fun--and it is, in my opinion at least, even more of a sandbox than the "traditonal GM" approach being discussed here.
Sure. I said elsewhere that Hussars approach might work for you. But your criticisms seemed directed at trad sandboxes. And my sense is, that your concerns are ones our solutions won’t address (which isn’t a criticism of you but an acknowledgement that what you are after a trad sandboxes probably can’t provide)
 


I don't follow. There's a castle. It has defenders. The PCs sneak past the defenders, or fight them, or whatever.

In the fiction, I can't imagine anyone saying "Hey, we bypassed that encounter!" And at the table, why would I need to talk about "bypassing an encounter" as opposed to just talking about what did or didn't happen in the fiction?
So, in a Burning Wheel game, would your PC, in the fiction of the game, say “I want to locate an inn with rooms for us, and but this town is so crowded that’s an ob 3 test”? Or would you accept that’s you talking out of character?

Ok, maybe you never, ever talk OOC at the table, but you do understand the difference between in- and out-of-character terminology, right?
 

Do you realize that you just continued the stonewalling with a non-answer?

"It looks like this style as a problem, and nobody will tell me how it is handled!"
"Well, maybe this style isn't for you..."

This is deflection. EzekielRaiden didn't ask what style they'd like best! They asked how this situation is handled in the style. Even if there is no standard answer, one should be able to state some common practices clearly and concisely.

"In style A we do X..., In style B we do Y. In style C, we make it clear in session zero that..." and so on.
This is a bit of a rehash of a line of discussion that has already happened, so this feels like a bit of a misrepresentation. From what I've seen, it's more:
A: It looks like this style has a problem, and nobody will tell me how it is handled!
B: I handle it by XYZ, someone else may handle it differently.
A: That isn't sufficient enough to alleviate my concerns.
B: Well, maybe this style isn't for you...
 

LOL. No, they don't blindfold anyone. They even have handy signs at the end of the aisles. What they don't do is give you a detailed map of the entire store, you have to look down the aisles to find what you want. If you get really, really stuck perhaps you can find someone to help you.
No, see, the players aren’t allowed to think, ask questions, use reference guides, make assumptions of any sort, or contribute in any way. They’re only allowed to use the paltry information the GM deigns to grant them.
 

Do players earn XP for "bypassed" encounters?
I provide 2 ways to level up
- Engage with your Traits, Bonds, Ideals, Flaws to gain 1 XP (there are limitations, you cannot button mash 1 of them etc). Gain XP equal to your level. They are level 15, it is not easy. EDIT: Important the table decides if your engagement is XP worthy.
- Story Milestone/Party goal achieved (player-facing)

There is a 3rd but that is only for new characters who start several levels lower and once they reach the rest of the party they can only progress using the above methods
- Survive 2 deadly combats

I would argue that those they do not earn XP for are bypassed. Those they do earn XP for--regardless of the method by which they obtained that experience, assuming it is commensurate with other approaches--were not bypassed.
If I were to use an XP-based system I'd only provide a fraction of the XPs for the encounters bypassed and that fraction (%) would be dependent on the difficulty & risk involved. I honestly couldn't give you more details without working through the math.
 
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