D&D 5E (2024) Fireball Vs Chromatic Orb Late Tier 2 Thoughts.

A While Ago I posted about how I thought Chromatic Orb May Be Good and Fireball was a C tier spell.

Alot of this is due to hit point inflation. Fireballs good at fodder clearing my counter argument is it's still pointless at that due to so many classes having fodder clearing abilities via zone effects (Druid spells, spirit guardians, etc).

I have also been running encounters RAW in the DMG. So far 5.5 is better than 5.0. As you level up it's hard to fit fodder as such in. Mooks are really CR 2 or 3 unless you ignore the DMG which suggest you don't outnumber PCs more than 2-1.

Im doing less than 6-8 encounters that's our the window. 3-6 is more typical per long rest just to add context. 3 high encounters and 1-3 low or medium encounters tends to tap PCs out. 4 high encounters also tends to add stress. Party size is usually 5 sometimes 4 or 6 so 8-12 tends to be maximum size of encounters. I'm running RAW for the time being. New edition, 1st time level 8-10.

Unpopular opinion time. Fireballs still a tier C spell. Situationally it can be A but Situational spells are inherently tge definition of C tier spells. Doesn't mean theyre bad just Situational.

All direct damage spells instantaneous imho are D or C tier. I'm not counting recurring same ones eg Spirit Guardians. The exceptions have some sort of rider effect eg Synaptic Static or secret sauce extra effect eg Chromatic Orb.

However COs effectiveness has been distorted by a Dragon Sorcerer using it. Their AoEs are better than single target spells as charisma only applies to one roll. CO also takes time. The Sorcerer now has Empower, twin, quicken and Seeking spell metamagic and innate sorcery.

So overall chromatic orb useful in more situations than FB. Upcast 4+ or 3+ as Sorcerers better most of the time. Probably not worth upcasting to 5th or 6th my players tend to cap it at 4th. Its competing with things like twinned Hold Monster or Synaptic Static plus other spell. Exception being va paralyzed targets (said hold monster/person).

Overall it's a B imho. Versatile and available at low levels. As a direct damage spell it's an A tier spell, S tier for dragon Sorcerers. Its main downsides are its direct damage and it can take a while to resolve per target per bounce plus empower or seeking to help it bounce. Vs AoE.

Subject to DM encounter design. Sample encounters recently.

3 night hags, nalfeshnee, archmage.
6 Warriors veterans+cultist hierophant
6 warriors+ veterans hierophant+ archepriest
6 Warrior veterans+ warrior commander, + gladiator

Baneites.

Some AoEs have connected with 7 targets, CO generally been 4th level casting. DCs 16-20 due to items and/or innate sorcery and who casts what.


Other thoughts.

CR 3s generally take a double tap to kill or put in 1 shot range. Eg fireball X2 or fireball+ lightning bolt or synaptic static. On paper and upcast fireball or lightning bolt deals more damage. Real world synaptic static obsolete both upcast (psychic damage, int save + debuff> 2d6 damage imho).

Zardnaar said:

Unpopular opinion time. Fireballs still a tier C spell.

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That opinion might be unpopular for brand new players mesmerized by a giant pile of dice falling on the table, but anyone who's ever actually looked at the math knows that Fireball has always been extremely overrated in DnD 5e.

DrJawaPhD said:

That opinion might be unpopular for brand new players mesmerized by a giant pile of dice falling on the table, but anyone who's ever actually looked at the math knows that Fireball has always been extremely overrated in DnD 5e.

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Yeah. Member how good it was in 3E (lol).

Its about half as effective now, 1/rd or less AD&D.

How many did you hit? 7? Level 4 fireball = let's say 23 damage per critter, either ~ 31 or 16. That's a lot of damage.

L4 CO is 6d8, 27 if you hit, maybe you hit another couple, but it sucks when you miss and as a True Strike Cleric, you do miss. How is this so much better exactly? Burn a bunch of Sorc resources and sure, it's better, so is Fireball, that's what Sorcs are good at.

TigerDude said:

How many did you hit? 7? Level 4 fireball = let's say 23 damage per critter, either ~ 31 or 16. That's a lot of damage.

L4 CO is 6d8, 27 if you hit, maybe you hit another couple, but it sucks when you miss and as a True Strike Cleric, you do miss. How is this so much better exactly? Burn a bunch of Sorc resources and sure, it's better, so is Fireball, that's what Sorcs are good at.

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Sorcerer used a lvl 4 lightning bolt. Light faerie used a 4thblvl fireball.

Hit 7.

Later another fireball (3rd level) and a synaptic static.

One roll was marginally more than average another was 42 iirc (9d6) good roll.

Chromatic irbs Dunday nothing over 5 targets but they were getting empowered. One added around 15 damage and no save.
Enemies rolled fairly poorly on saves.

They snuck in the back and encountered a patrol conveniently in a 5' corridor.

Rarely used though. CO gets a lot of use often in 4th level slot. 5ths to important.

Zardnaar said:

Hit 7.

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That's very high in my experience. Monsters are usually more spread out than that.

Paul Farquhar said:

That's very high in my experience. Monsters are usually more spread out than that.

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Yeah they went to back of mansion, went in through 2nd story.

Rolled randomly to see where the patrol was. 5' corridor along back of mansion in BG.

Try not to metagame against them to much so figured they would be climbed up inside while "safe".

Next combat they spread out due to noise.

Main defenders were near the front door.

I feel it comes down to style of play. Control spells are overall more powerful than damage spells, but due to the limitation of concentration, control spells seldom solve problems entirely on their own (although your allies can often provide the damage necessary). Fireball is among the top tier instantaneous damage spells, being primarily useful against mobs early in the combat (before your allies are in melee). If you face fewer enemies, then single target spells like Chromatic Orb are going to be more useful, since they are designed to deal more damage per spell level. If you have longer combats than a few rounds, then instantaneous damage spells are typically less useful than spells that deal damage every round, like Spirit Guardians.

Fireball discussions always make me laugh. In a campaign I'm playing in that's 15th level, I have a bladesinger Wizard. I didn't have fireball until the party chipped in and bought me a scroll because it "wasn't right." I've never cast it.

Now in the game I'm currently playing, we just hit 11th level and one player has an evoker. People ask why he doesn't seem as powerful as the wizard in the other game, and it's because he casts pretty much AOE damage spells only. I bought him a Counterspell scroll and said "please memorize this so that my bard doesn't have to take it to keep us alive."

The Wizard really is a class that can range from god mode to "okay."

DrJawaPhD said:

That opinion might be unpopular for brand new players mesmerized by a giant pile of dice falling on the table, but anyone who's ever actually looked at the math knows that Fireball has always been extremely overrated in DnD 5e.

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Nah. Fireball does exactly what it should do. People looked at 8d6 and said: that must be overpowered.

If definitions are C = situationally extremely powerful. Then C seems right.

But by this definition most spells are.

Misty step? I'd rate it A tier. But if people get close to you, someone did a mistake.
Shield? Also A tier.... But if you are attacked, it has a 25% chance that casting it makes a difference. In all other cases you are missed or even hit woth shield on.
And even if it would make a difference, maybe you are not concentrating on an import spell and have enough hp to take the hit. So also situational.

The trick usually is to combine a lot of C tier spells to cover most situations.
And fireball is one spell I would often take if I get the chance.

Going by our game, the only spells I'd really rate A to S tier are 2024 healing word and command.Healing word, because it brings people back to the fight or keeps them there for minimal action cost and command, since it lost the requirement that the target has to understand your language.