D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

mamba · Monday at 9:08 AM

EzekielRaiden said:
Yes, because GMs are never petulant and demanding. It's only the horrible awful players who are evil wicked demanding jerks.

that is a non sequitur

SableWyvern · Monday at 9:08 AM

EzekielRaiden said:
Not according to the people in this thread!

Indeed. Not according to me!

Or, more exactly, they're as connected as you want them to be. Generally, I don't want them connected. If you're playing a Dark Sun game I'm running, Athas is not connected in any way to the standard D&D multiverse. If I run Al Qadim, it's not even going to be part of the Forgotten Realms (and there are no demi-humans at all

)

Currently, since I'm running FR, they're kind of connected, but it's not currently a focus of play. If, at some point, I run some Planescape, they may also be connected, but I mostly won't be worrying about or interested in the Prime Material

dave2008 · Monday at 9:11 AM

EzekielRaiden said:
You may insist all you like. The quote remains. “If it’s in D&D it has a place in Eberron” is true of Eberron. It is not true of FR. FR was not built with that in mind. Eberron was.

Unless and until you can show me where that statement has also been made about FR, I rest my case.

How does that statement make it any more less easy to add Tortles to Eberron vs FR? I am truly curious as I don't know much about the settings, but my understanding would it would be easier to add them to FR. I mean don't they canonically exist in Chult already?

SableWyvern · Monday at 9:12 AM

Paul Farquhar said:
I mean, a good example of "canon is really important - apart from when I don't like it".

In my games, the things I decide are canon tend to be important. The things game authors, publishers and the like decide are canon hold no special weight or importance.

EzekielRaiden · Monday at 9:17 AM

dave2008 said:
Yes, that is typically why the host deserves more respect / deference - they are putting in the effort and cost to host.

Only if they behave in a manner actually warranting that respect/deference.

I have not seen a single person emphasizing the deference to GMs who recognizes how incredibly important that is. Not once. Perhaps you'd like to change that?

dave2008 said:
Well it would be really odd to have dishes that only have meat, so I will assume you mean the main entree here. Yes, that would be rude (I've lived that very scenario). However, that really only applies if the host knows the guest is a vegetarian. The safe assumption (in the US at least) is that they are not vegetarians. So, IMO, it is the vegetarians responsibility to let the host know of dietary restrictions prior to accepting the invite.

While this analogy is a bit silly I do think it works to some extent. If a player came to game and would only play one species, they should really let the group know before hand.

Sure. No one has yet made any allowance whatsoever for that. It's "My house my rules, GTFO, I can replace you in an instant".

EzekielRaiden · Monday at 9:29 AM

dave2008 said:
How does that statement make it any more less easy to add Tortles to Eberron vs FR? I am truly curious as I don't know much about the settings, but my understanding would it would be easier to add them to FR. I mean don't they canonically exist in Chult already?

Then use something else, if tortles are already present. Bee-people (as Mr. Baker suggested), or Thri-Kreen, or owlin, or vedalken, or Simic hybrids, or plasmoids, or giff, or whatever so-called "weird" option you like. Tortle wasn't picked because it is somehow specially excluded. It was simply picked because it's a step away from typical D&D offerings. I would appreciate avoiding undue emphasis on a detail that, while almost certainly very important to the individual player, is not important to the wider argument regarding GM behavior, player behavior, and appropriate boundaries on each.

Or, simply put, don't ignore the forest for the trees, let alone a single tree.

tetrasodium · Monday at 9:32 AM

Paul Farquhar said:
Players don't "demand". That is a strawman erected by those who want to argue for DM absolute power to do whatever they like. If you listen to your players, which I'm sure you do, then you are already doing what is being asked for.

Absolute? The door is right here. My players are generally fine with my setting curation and exceptions are easily handled because my players don't act like they have absolute power talking about gm supremacy and such.

EzekielRaiden said:
A host has greater responsibilities than a guest, no? Especially when the guests are present at the host's invitation!

It is a rude host that invites friends over for a dinner party and provides only dishes which contain meat, knowing that one of the guests is vegetarian; or dishes which contain pork and pork-derived products (e.g. bacon fat), knowing that one of the guests is Jewish or Muslim. It is a rude host that invites friends to stay the night, and then plays screamer metal until late into the evening, unless they know for certain that every guest they invited enjoys such music. It is a rude host who actively serves and displays alcoholic beverages despite knowing that one of the guests is a recovering alcoholic.

And, likewise, it is a rude host who pointedly avoids foods without signalling that right from the very start, springing it on guests upon their arrival. If you have a Thanksgiving meal and there is simply no dessert whatsoever, not even a single pumpkin pie, not even the attempt at a dessert, I would absolutely call that being a bad host. Now, if the guests know you're allergic to pumpkin, whether because you informed them specifically BEFORE they agreed to attend, then they should expect no pie; if you say you're cutting back on sugars entirely, so you're not serving dessert and you tell them BEFORE they agreed to attend, then they should expect no dessert and can bug out ASAP.

Once you're at session 0, people have already accepted your invitation and are present at your house. I am quite comfortable asserting that it is far too late at that point to start telling people that they are somehow horrible awful rude guests because they expected to be able to have dessert after their dinner!

I rarely provide food for my players when I'm hosting but we almost always eat off plates I provide and almost always have an excess of snacks I didn't buy. Nobody thinks it's strange or even asks because alcohol is expensive when in the form of a nearly∆ full bar.in fact I was having cocktails with a player the evening of the linked post because they stopped by to give me a hard to find bottle of green chartreuse for Christmas even though I'm not running anything lately

∆not enough vodka based cocktails using shelf stable bottles that I like for me to bother.

SableWyvern · Monday at 9:42 AM

EzekielRaiden said:
Only if they behave in a manner actually warranting that respect/deference.

I have not seen a single person emphasizing the deference to GMs who recognizes how incredibly important that is. Not once. Perhaps you'd like to change that?

Sure. No one has yet made any allowance whatsoever for that. It's "My house my rules, GTFO, I can replace you in an instant".

These are some of the things I do for my group:

Host.
Provide beer and espresso coffee.
Clean up.
Prep and run games, offering 20 - 25 sessions (6-8 hours per session) per year consistently for the past two-and-a-half decades.
Run campaigns lasting years, maintaining coherency, tying things together, giving my players the sorts of games they enjoy.
Have close to zero expectations that players have to do any homework or study prior to a new game starting -- I do my utmost to minimise mandatory reading to a few paragraphs, and will happily teach as we play.
Manage all scheduling.
It rarely happens, and is usually not serious when it does, but manage mediation if two players come into conflict.
Clearly set expectations, adjudicate fairly and consistently, listen to feedback.
Create handouts, online character sheets and other resources required for play.
Spend thousands of dollars on books and accessories (some players used to chip in when I had less money).
Pay for my own share of pizza.
Host the annual Grand Final BBQ.
Ultimately, there is probably one person in the group (of 8) who'd be likely to be gaming regularly if I wasn't doing the things above, and the gaming he would be doing would be with a GM who runs in a style he enjoys a lot less than mine (I know this for a fact, because he has a standing offer to play with that GM, and chooses my game instead).

In return, my players are absolutely happy to leave me with the power to run exactly the sort of games I want. Sometimes this means I decide what I'm going to run and let them know, sometimes it means a more collaborative approach. If I have a more restrictive concept I want to run and my players agree to play, I can assure you I'm not going to feel bad about rejecting a PC idea that I feel doesn't fit. When it comes to, "what game is next" that's an area where the players choose to, and are happy to, defer to me, if that's the word you feel the need to use.

However, it does not mean that I demand deference generally or that I'm wielding absolute power with crazed abandon. It means my players appreciate all the things I do to make the games happen, and I appreciate (wholeheartedly and openly) the fact that they let me run any game I want.

I'm not at all unhappy doing the things I do to ensure the group functions and continues to exist -- I do them because I enjoy it. My players are not unhappy to "defer" to me regarding the sorts of games and the options available, because they enjoy the games I use that power to run.

dave2008 · Monday at 9:49 AM

EzekielRaiden said:
Only if they behave in a manner actually warranting that respect/deference.

Of course, that goes without saying IMO

EzekielRaiden said:
I have not seen a single person emphasizing the deference to GMs who recognizes how incredibly important that is. Not once. Perhaps you'd like to change that?

I apologize but I don't understand what your asking? Are you asking me to rank how important it is to defer to the GM? If so, I would say a 5 out of 10?

EzekielRaiden said:
Sure. No one has yet made any allowance whatsoever for that.

I mean I'm not speaking for everyone, so I am not sure what your point is. However, I do feel like others have made this point.

EzekielRaiden said:
It's "My house my rules, GTFO, I can replace you in an instant".

Ya, that is not the vibe I am getting from this thread. To each their own I guess.

dave2008 · Monday at 9:54 AM

EzekielRaiden said:
Then use something else, if tortles are already present. Bee-people (as Mr. Baker suggested), or Thri-Kreen, or owlin, or vedalken, or Simic hybrids, or plasmoids, or giff, or whatever so-called "weird" option you like. Tortle wasn't picked because it is somehow specially excluded. It was simply picked because it's a step away from typical D&D offerings. I would appreciate avoiding undue emphasis on a detail that, while almost certainly very important to the individual player, is not important to the wider argument regarding GM behavior, player behavior, and appropriate boundaries on each.

Or, simply put, don't ignore the forest for the trees, let alone a single tree.

I get what you are saying now - however, my point was specific to the lore of Eberron and FR. My apologies for confusing the issue.

Now that I understand what you're saying, I would appreciate you answering the question. How does that statement from KB make it any easier to integrate a non-standard species into a setting that doesn't typically have them / doesn't have them in published material? To my mind the DM requirement is the same, so I am curious why you feel KB' statement makes it easier for Eberron? Is it an appeal to authority?

D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

mamba

Legend

SableWyvern

Cruel Despot

dave2008

Legend

SableWyvern

Cruel Despot

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way

tetrasodium

Legend

SableWyvern

Cruel Despot

dave2008

Legend

dave2008

Legend

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