10 or better to hit period

I've thought often about the inherent "arms race" and mathematical complications arising from the increased bonuses in leveling.

As PC's To Hit increases, so does Monster AC.

As PC's HPs increase, so do Monsters'.

As PC damage increases, so does Monsters'.

These increases are balanced, right? So why don't they just cancel each other out?

It seems to me that somewhere in the formulae all this is a wash, esp. in a system as tightly balanced as 4E. I wonder if a 3rd level combat lasts X rounds, for instance, but so does a 14th level combat last about the same number of rounds?

I think an approach like Sadrik's recognizes that increase on the PC side is matched by an increase on the monster side (and vice versa), and could simplify things a great deal without changing much at all.

PCs and Monsters would still get cool new abilities, feats, etc., but the math would seem to remain a static element.

The wrinkle would be, as posted earlier, low level PCs fighting high level monsters. If you just called the per level To Hit increase a wash against the per level increase AC, HPs might even that out.
You hit the nail on the head with a critical hit. There are some noted wrinkles, some of them are very manageable and others make things have to be rethought (armor + shields). I really don't see the to hit low or high level monsters more often as a casualty of this system. I really kind of like that a low level guy can hit a high level guy. It puts some fear back in for playing high level! :devil: Also the balancing factor is that HP and damage are scaling up so those are the factors for consideration and not the to hit chances those remain static.

(As an aside, I've also toyed with the idea of having something like 1st level PCs just march out into the world, without their per level increases in To Hit, Damage, and AC, but keep the Monsters as is. Hey, some monsters are just, well, monsters! But, need to kill Radamanthus, the Ancient Red Dragon but you still have your 1st level To Hit, Damage, and AC? Maybe you need to search the FarKeep Ruins for the fabled Sword of Galador the Dragon Slayer...?)
Sounds like a fun game.:]
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I've always thought that light armor users havings the same Armor Class than heavy armor users was kind of bland. Rogues and Rangers should, IMO, be more squishy and rely more on their teammates.

That won't happen. You'll just end up with every rogue and ranger having str and con 13+ and wearing heavy armor. Well, either that or dying very quickly.
 

That won't happen. You'll just end up with every rogue and ranger having str and con 13+ and wearing heavy armor. Well, either that or dying very quickly.

I appreciate your feedback but, is it that bad? A 4 point difference in AC can already happen in the standard rules (see the pregens in KoS, rogue AC 16, paladin AC 20), does that mean quick and certain death for the squishy? If it is, I can settle for a 3 or even 2 point difference between High and Low Defenses, not a problem. With monsters there's a 2 point gap between Soliders and Skirmishers, and a 4 point gap between Soliders and Artillery, so I'm undecided.

"You hit on a 9+". "-2 if attacking a High Defense". Better?
 

About the shields and weapons:

Do all the "no change" enetries on the +3 proficiency weapons mean that those weapons lose their comparative attack bonuses but don't get anything in return? That would seem to make them strictly weaker than their +2 proficiency counterparts.

Also, it seems like you made shields a lot worse. Currently, the cost of wielding a shield is that you need the proficiency feat to use it (unless you are already proficient) and it takes up one of your hands (so you can't use a 2-handed weapon) and the benefit is you get +1-2 static AC bonus. Your system essentially makes it so that in addition to all the normal costs, you only get the AC bonus if you accept a penalty to offense, or even give up your entire standard action. (How often do people actually use total defense in your experience? I've never seen it used in any game I have played.)

That won't happen. You'll just end up with every rogue and ranger having str and con 13+ and wearing heavy armor. Well, either that or dying very quickly.

I'm skeptical of this implication, though. Each additional level of armor proficiency is effectively a feat and possibly some stat points for +1 HP/tier in this system. It would be far more cost-effective just to take Toughness, which is +5 HP/tier for one feat.

Also, by the way, another thing you haven't taken into account:

In the existing system, weapon attacks tend to target AC most often, while implement attacks tend to target other defenses. Weapons get the proficiency bonus unlike implements, but other defenses tend to be lower than AC, which balances out. However by taking away the proficiency bonuses you are effectively reducing weapon attacks by 2 to 3 points vis-a-vis implement attacks.
 

Thank you for your spot on excellent comments!
About the shields and weapons:

Do all the "no change" enetries on the +3 proficiency weapons mean that those weapons lose their comparative attack bonuses but don't get anything in return? That would seem to make them strictly weaker than their +2 proficiency counterparts.
Well I was going for an approach of changing as little as possible. Do you have some better suggestions as to what to do? Because I would like the '+3' weapons to be good but I am in favor of changing as little as possible. (Honestly, I think there is a lot that could get changed in the weapons but I will defer to the RAW as much as humanly possible here)

Also, it seems like you made shields a lot worse. Currently, the cost of wielding a shield is that you need the proficiency feat to use it (unless you are already proficient) and it takes up one of your hands (so you can't use a 2-handed weapon) and the benefit is you get +1-2 static AC bonus. Your system essentially makes it so that in addition to all the normal costs, you only get the AC bonus if you accept a penalty to offense, or even give up your entire standard action. (How often do people actually use total defense in your experience? I've never seen it used in any game I have played.)
You are absolutely right, shields are not right. My first thought was that light shields can act as cover and heavy shields can act as superior cover. But then I thought, superior cover would be too good. So then I thought, I could make them both cover, but then what is the point of a heavy shield and then I thought, well perhaps total defense action could benefit. You are right though, why give total 'd' a benefit? It is nearly never used. What about my initial thought, was I right that -5 would be too powerful?

I'm skeptical of this implication, though. Each additional level of armor proficiency is effectively a feat and possibly some stat points for +1 HP/tier in this system. It would be far more cost-effective just to take Toughness, which is +5 HP/tier for one feat.
And I also was thinking about this, I want to use the 5 levels of armor they have developed and not go with just light and heavy (even though the more coarse gradation would be better). I was thinking if the first feat gets you 2 HP per tier and then all the others basically add +1 per tier that is a lame feat. I thought of increasing them to +2, so the five types would give 2/4/6/8/10 which could be over-kill. Plate armor at +10 per tier definitely kicks butt.

I think to implement this idea correctly armor has to be HP bonus or Resist "damage". Since hitting chance is static, the only thing that offsets your ability to defend is the ability to take more damage in combat- not how well you hit. So, it is the right idea I think.

Also, by the way, another thing you haven't taken into account:

In the existing system, weapon attacks tend to target AC most often, while implement attacks tend to target other defenses. Weapons get the proficiency bonus unlike implements, but other defenses tend to be lower than AC, which balances out. However by taking away the proficiency bonuses you are effectively reducing weapon attacks by 2 to 3 points vis-a-vis implement attacks.
This is very true also, like I said spot on. I ask though was it supposed to be that way? When they sat down did they intend every attack to virtually be the same chances to hit? If that is true then *all* attacks should hit on a 10+ which would further streamline and make the system that much more elegant.

I only ask about the designer intent vs. the actual implementation because my gut hunch is that other defense attacks were meant to be easier to hit than AC. Most monsters have a low other defense and this assumes you are targeting a lower defense to take advantage of their weaknesses. So, the 8+ sort of takes the, "Hey, maybe they hit their low defense" and makes that way all the time. Perhaps this makes the attack other defense powers more powerful than initially conceived, I don't know. Opinion?
 

Thank you for your spot on excellent comments!

Well I was going for an approach of changing as little as possible. Do you have some better suggestions as to what to do? Because I would like the '+3' weapons to be good but I am in favor of changing as little as possible. (Honestly, I think there is a lot that could get changed in the weapons but I will defer to the RAW as much as humanly possible here)

You could simply say something like, all +3 proficiency weapons get +1 to their damage rolls per [W]. That about fits with the existing system where +2 prof weapons tend to have about 1 point higher [W] than equivalent +3 prof weapons.

You are absolutely right, shields are not right. My first thought was that light shields can act as cover and heavy shields can act as superior cover. But then I thought, superior cover would be too good. So then I thought, I could make them both cover, but then what is the point of a heavy shield and then I thought, well perhaps total defense action could benefit. You are right though, why give total 'd' a benefit? It is nearly never used. What about my initial thought, was I right that -5 would be too powerful?

It seems like the problem you're having is that having a shield gives you a "passive" penalty (not having a 2-handed weapon, or having to spend a feat to use it) that is on all the time, while the benefit it gives you is "active" - you have to reduce your attack or take total defense in order to use its benefit. And taking a penalty to attack to get a bonus to defense is usually disadvantageous, because you can direct attacks to where they are most needed, while if you increase your defense enemies can (usually) attack someone else.

Essentially under your system the choices are (1) have a two-handed weapon, which gives you a better attack all the time with no downside, or (2) have a weapon and shield, which gives you an option to reduce your attack to increase defense - an option which is usually not advantageous, and even when it is it has a downside.


Maybe you should make it just like armor: say a light/heavy shield gives +1/+2 HP per tier. You could also say it gives +1/+2 AC when you take a total defense or second wind - that would make it more useful because second wind is used muh more often than total defense.

And I also was thinking about this, I want to use the 5 levels of armor they have developed and not go with just light and heavy (even though the more coarse gradation would be better). I was thinking if the first feat gets you 2 HP per tier and then all the others basically add +1 per tier that is a lame feat. I thought of increasing them to +2, so the five types would give 2/4/6/8/10 which could be over-kill. Plate armor at +10 per tier definitely kicks butt.

I think to implement this idea correctly armor has to be HP bonus or Resist "damage". Since hitting chance is static, the only thing that offsets your ability to defend is the ability to take more damage in combat- not how well you hit. So, it is the right idea I think.
Another issue to think about is that the way it currently works, classes with only light armor proficiency tend to be high in dex or int, which offsets their low AC. Since in your system dex and int no longer help AC, this nerfs light armor users vis-a-vis heavy armor users. Of course if that is what you want then so be it.

Resist all damage is probably not a good idea. If effectively everyone had resist all, that would affect lots of monster powers - for example ongoing damage zones, and other powers which do a little bit of damage over and over again, would be a lot less effective. Increasing HP would probably be better.

This is very true also, like I said spot on. I ask though was it supposed to be that way? When they sat down did they intend every attack to virtually be the same chances to hit? If that is true then *all* attacks should hit on a 10+ which would further streamline and make the system that much more elegant.

I only ask about the designer intent vs. the actual implementation because my gut hunch is that other defense attacks were meant to be easier to hit than AC. Most monsters have a low other defense and this assumes you are targeting a lower defense to take advantage of their weaknesses. So, the 8+ sort of takes the, "Hey, maybe they hit their low defense" and makes that way all the time. Perhaps this makes the attack other defense powers more powerful than initially conceived, I don't know. Opinion?
There are effectively three major types of attacks in the game:

(1) Weapon attacks that target AC.
(2) Implement attacks that target other defenses.
(3) Weapon attacks that target other defenses.

AFAIK, there are no implement attacks that target AC.

Now, weapon attacks tend to be 2-3 points higher than implement attacks because of the proficiency bonus, but AC tends to be 2-3 points higher than other defenses. Thus in the existing system, attacks of type (1) are balanced with attacks of type (2) because the two effects cancel out, but attacks of type (3) are better. So if you wanted to replicate that you could say that (1) and (2) type attacks hit on 10+, while (3) type attacks hit on 8+.

There's also a third type of attack: attacks that don't have a weapon or implement, but do have a tier-scaled bonus, such as a Dragonborn's dragon breath. In this case the tier scaled bonus substitutes for the implement enhancement bonus, so it's effectively like an implement attack, and can be treated as such.


Another thing is combat maneuvers like bull rush and grab. These are not weapons or implements, but have no tier-scaled bonus to replace the implement bonus, making them very hard to hit with at higher levels. This is probably not an intended feature of the game, so you can fix that by treating those like implement attacks in the system above, so they would hit on 10+. However that would provide an unusual situation where the 8 strength wizard would be just as effective at grabbing opponents as the 20 strength fighter.
 

@Alex319

Checked out your blog and read the part about the superhero game with the PC that was sent to earth as part of a "reality" tv show and sometimes got 'ported around for better entertainment value and that really reminded me of the South Park episode Earth! LMAO that is just way too funny.
 

Having the +3 proficiency weapons offer +1 damage or even increasing the damage die type would also work well.

Shields should not be cover with further thought. That cheapens cover when you basically are running around with mobile cover that doesn't make any sense. So I will throw out my shield idea. HP for shields and armor though?

I do like the idea that the implement attack always targets the weak defense. It simplifies the roll too, if it targets AC it is 10+, if it targets an other defense it is 8+.
Agreed maneuvers should be 10+ (Aid other, Bull rush, Escape, Grab).
 

I appreciate your feedback but, is it that bad? A 4 point difference in AC can already happen in the standard rules (see the pregens in KoS, rogue AC 16, paladin AC 20), does that mean quick and certain death for the squishy?

The paladin's AC is 3 points ahead of the next best one, and the lowest ac is 14. If you look, the rogue's ac is a point away from the warriors.

It's not that rogues should have a "low" defense: it's that paladins should have a "very high" defense.
 

The paladin's AC is 3 points ahead of the next best one, and the lowest ac is 14. If you look, the rogue's ac is a point away from the warriors.

It's not that rogues should have a "low" defense: it's that paladins should have a "very high" defense.
Saeviomagy, kermel, are you guys arguing about another system from another board in this thread? Albeit I will agree that the system seems is similar. Do you care to comment on the thread at hand? Considering you guys have thought about your other system I would like to here what you think of this one.
 

Remove ads

Top