D&D (2024) 1D&D; new ability cap at 18?

[Pauln6]

I disagree. That is how they were in 3E and I hated it. If my 8 strength Rogue puts on a Gauntlets of Ogre Power he should have a 19 and to be honest this is the most common use of the item in games I play.

In games I play the Rogues and Bladesinger Wizards are who usually takes the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. This frees up ASIs so they don't have to pump dex. On the Rogues this means a lot of feats. Belts of Giant Strength usually go to melee characters, but as often as not it is a dex based fighter or ranger.

I would be ok with a max stat of 18, but I don't like the idea of nerfing the items that give you X Stat.

Untrue. In 3e all you got was a stat bump. With my adjustment the character can carry twice (or three times) as much as normal, can push, trip, or wrestle other giants, and hurl rocks. What it doesn't do is make it easy for a rogue to get 19 strength without putting in some stat investment first. Mutants and Masterminds 2 did exactly this by differentiating enhanced strength (a stat boost) from super strength (lifting capacity). Tripping dragons is fun.

You gain some of the feel of being super strong without breaking bounded accuracy unless you put in a huge amount if investment. 24 strength is plenty strong in terms of accuracy in melee but you only get there if you pumped strength to start with. It finally makes it an item that has a genuine benefit for classes like fighters who should feel like it's an item for them but it benefits the 10 strength cleric more.

Obviously, people who enjoy min maxing and using a magic item to plug the hole might be less keen.

 

[tetrasodium]

I disagree. That is how they were in 3E and I hated it. If my 8 strength Rogue puts on a Gauntlets of Ogre Power he should have a 19 and to be honest this is the most common use of the item in games I play.

In games I play the Rogues and Bladesinger Wizards are who usually takes the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. This frees up ASIs so they don't have to pump dex. On the Rogues this means a lot of feats. Belts of Giant Strength usually go to melee characters, but as often as not it is a dex based fighter or ranger.

I would be ok with a max stat of 18, but I don't like the idea of nerfing the items that give you X Stat.

5e pointbuy only goes 8 to to 15 with a cost of

Spoiler: costs

8-0
9-1
10-2
11-3
12-4
13-5
14-7
15-9

Continuing it would be 16-11 17-13 18-15 & 19-17 if the costs didn't escalate again but past edition went all the way to 18

Spoiler: more complete list

9-1
10-2
11-3
12-4
13-5
14-6
15-8
16-10
17-13
18-16

Back then 17+ was 3 points of cost per point of attribute from 17 on rather than continuing with the earlier 2 per 1. So your 8 strength rogue put his attribute points elsewhere and the build depends on the GM supplying a specific item to finish it with a magic item that supplies an extra 19ish points worth of pointbuy pool? What about the other players who engaged in charop confined to the limits of character creation instead of relying on the GM to almost double the starting pool in order to take a dump stat to near cap?

 

[Undrave]

Some people roll.

Pshah, primitive savages, the lot of them!

Civilized people use points buy, or, if feeling lazy, the standard array.

(don't nobody take this too seriously okay?)

 

[ECMO3]

Untrue. In 3e all you got was a stat bump. With my adjustment the character can carry twice (or three times) as much as normal, can push, trip, or wrestle other giants, and hurl rocks. What it doesn't do is make it easy for a rogue to get 19 strength without putting in some stat investment first. Mutants and Masterminds 2 did exactly this by differentiating enhanced strength (a stat boost) from super strength (lifting capacity). Tripping dragons is fun.

Yeah I know and I hated 3E for that, especially after playing 1E and getting those 18-00 for the gauntlets. It should be easy to get a 19 strength

You gain some of the feel of being super strong without breaking bounded accuracy unless you put in a huge amount if investment. 24 strength is plenty strong in terms of accuracy in melee but you only get there if you pumped strength to start with. It finally makes it an item that has a genuine benefit for classes like fighters who should feel like it's an item for them but it benefits the 10 strength cleric more.

This is where I disagree.

I think it is for Rogues and melee Wizards and to a lessor extent dex-based fighters, froma role play point of view I think that is who should be getting it and attuning to it. Strength Fighters already have a high strenght. I think strength-based fighters have different items for them, things like adamantine plate and a plethora of available strength-based weapons.

 

[Pauln6]

Yeah I know and I hated 3E for that, especially after playing 1E and getting those 18-00 for the gauntlets. It should be easy to get a 19 strength


This is where I disagree.

I think it is for Rogues and melee Wizards and to a lessor extent dex-based fighters, froma role play point of view I think that is who should be getting it and attuning to it. Strength Fighters already have a high strenght. I think strength-based fighters have different items for them, things like adamantine plate and a plethora of available strength-based weapons.

Yes. I suppose I think the gauntlets thematically should give the benefits of ogre strength to everyone rather than just a massive boost to attack and damage rolls for low strength characters. One feels thematic and the other feels cheesy, mechanical, and counter-intuitive.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yeah I know and I hated 3E for that, especially after playing 1E and getting those 18-00 for the gauntlets. It should be easy to get a 19 strength


This is where I disagree.

I think it is for Rogues and melee Wizards and to a lessor extent dex-based fighters, froma role play point of view I think that is who should be getting it and attuning to it. Strength Fighters already have a high strenght. I think strength-based fighters have different items for them, things like adamantine plate and a plethora of available strength-based weapons.

Except finesse weapons like the rapier exist so that rogues & a "melee wizard" gish can use dex for attack and damage without any investment elsewhere. They are also not for "dex fighters" because in 5e they are for dex+Pick 2 or 3(con/wis/cha)+(str=19 item) fighters who want it all. The 2e style provided an option of some competence to characters with few other options in a system with nothing like 5e's cantrips. The 3.x style +attrib items made someone better where they excel or slightly improved upon a weakness. The 5e version just encourage bizarre & nonsensical charop like mediocre strength GWM fighters trying to be the party face/brain/etc in place of the bard/sorc/wizard/etc.

 

[ECMO3]

Except finesse weapons like the rapier exist so that rogues & a "melee wizard" gish can use dex for attack and damage without any investment elsewhere. They are also not for "dex fighters" because in 5e they are for dex+Pick 2 or 3(con/wis/cha)+(str=19 item) fighters who want it all. The 2e style provided an option of some competence to characters with few other options in a system with nothing like 5e's cantrips. The 3.x style +attrib items made someone better where they excel or slightly improved upon a weakness. The 5e version just encourage bizarre & nonsensical charop like mediocre strength GWM fighters trying to be the party face/brain/etc in place of the bard/sorc/wizard/etc.

You can use strength for finesse weapons too and those wizards generally want to use a non-finesse weapon if they can (a quarterstaff ideally so you have a weapon and focus all in one).

I love the idea of mediocre strength fighters being the party face/brain/etc, just like I love the idea of the wizard being the party tank or the Rogue being able to shove Ogres around with ease because he is sporting gauntlets and has expertise in Athletics.

As far as GWM, it is not a feat that I play a lot anyway. We have one player I play with and he gets it sometimes, but regardless of strength it really is not a good feat because it ties you to a small selection of weapons. Maybe if you find a Greatsword Holy Avenger or something first and then get the feat, but it sucks being the Great Weapon guy and primary damage dealer when you find a legendary shortsword and the Warlock who does not even have proficiency ends up taking it as her melee weapon for AOOs because it doesn't work with your feat (actual in-game example). IMO you are generally better off getting something universally useful if you go the feat route ..... like actor for example if you really want to be the face!

 

[tetrasodium]

You can use strength for finesse weapons too and those wizards generally want to use a non-finesse weapon if they can (a quarterstaff ideally so you have a weapon and focus all in one).

I love the idea of mediocre strength fighters being the party face/brain/etc, just like I love the idea of the wizard being the party tank or the Rogue being able to shove Ogres around with ease because he is sporting gauntlets and has expertise in Athletics.

As far as GWM, it is not a feat that I play a lot anyway. We have one player I play with and he gets it sometimes, but regardless of strength it really is not a good feat because it ties you to a small selection of weapons. MAybe if you find a Greatsword Holy Avenger or something first, but it sucks being the Great Weapon guy and primary damage dealer when you find a legendary shortsword and the Warlock wwho does not even have proficiency ends up taking it as her melee weapon for AOOs because it doesn't work with your feat (actual in-game example). IMO you are generally better off getting something universally useful if you go the feat route (like actor for example if you really want to be the face).

I like the idea too, but there are practical concerns that get dumped on me as the GM.

Spoiler: Take these Four d&d participants

• A: Alice has A fighter trash strength GWM GWF ok to good dex ok to great con wis & cha
• B: Bob has a fairly standard GWM GWF fighter with fairly standard attrib distribution
• C: Cindy has a bard or maybe even paladin face who distributed their attributes as expected for such a build
• D: Dave is the GM

Every time Cindy starts doing face stuff Alice jumps in to shove BMC biker aside and play the angel summoner "I can help... let me talk to them" card... but Cindy has little to push back on because Alice is basically just as good. Bob is great at what he does in a fight & sometimes even plays the role of big scary slab of muscle to Cindy.... until Alice shoves Bob too out of his own spot in the venn diagram.... Like Cindy there is little Bob can say to push back on because she can do it too and does have better charisma.

Fast forward a few levels from the first session & everyone is noticing that Alice is a bit on the functional to ok side of things in combat. Alice mentions about how she really needs to get a pair of gauntlets of ogre power & as a mere uncommon item they should only be like 500gp or so. Dave sees where this will go for poor Bob & says no you can't find them. Slowly the campaign turns into "shopping" for gauntlets of ogre power belts of giant strength & being difficult or even salty to quest givers who can't or won't give those specific items. Bob has no good options because feeding the beast will only create a new problem he will need to deal with.

 

[Laurefindel]

Would it be better for the game and the whole bounded accuracy if abilities would be capped at 18(+4) instead of 20(+5)?

It’s not gonna happen, but I would like that very much. Reasons have been stated in previous posts: release of pressure to pump “main” stat, make MAD builds more viable, reduce power of SAD classes (looking at you wizard).

And it goes back to older iterations of (A)D&D, hitting that nostalgic note. I might introduce that as a house rule in the next campaign.

 

[ECMO3]

Back then 17+ was 3 points of cost per point of attribute from 17 on rather than continuing with the earlier 2 per 1. So your 8 strength rogue put his attribute points elsewhere and the build depends on the GM supplying a specific item to finish it with a magic item that supplies an extra 19ish points worth of pointbuy pool? What about the other players who engaged in charop confined to the limits of character creation instead of relying on the GM to almost double the starting pool in order to take a dump stat to near cap?

He doesn't depend on the GM doing anything and in most games I play magic items are either random or whatever the published adventure says they are.

That said magic items are cool and they should go to who can use them the most and an 8 strength character who uses weapons gets far more out of gauntlets of ogre power than a 16 strength character.

If you are playing a point buy game the other players chose their stats, so I don't see how they are getting screwed and if you are playing with magic items at all, players are going beyond the limit of character creation.