Corinnguard
Hero
The PF2 Way is why that edition has been nicknamed 'Featfinder' by some. PF2 has a serious case of feat bloat- ancestral feats, skill feats, lineage feats, general feats and class feats.
D&D (2024) 1st vs. 4th Level Feats
The thing to remember is that all Feats are is class features that can apply to multiple classes.
So if you were going to do that massive combat / non-combat feat roll-out... the only reason to have that many would be if you removed quite a lot of class features from each class and turned them into feats just so that PCs would not be completely overwhelmed by too many abilities and features. Remove Rage and turn it into a feat. Remove Expertise and turn it into a feat. Remove Channel Divinity and turn it into a feat. Maybe then you'd have a reason to hand out so many Feats to every class.
At some point though... if you make so many Feats and hand them out to so many characters, you're approaching the point where specific classes don't really exist anymore, because most of a PC's abilities in one class end up being completely different from another PC in the supposed same class. Can you really say two characters are Wizards when more than half of their abilities don't even match up?
In the 3E days when feats were basically just dozens of bonus +1s and the like... you could hand those things out like candy because they made virtually no change to a character other than making their numbers bigger. But if 5E feats are supposed to give characters this new functionality and ability... you hand out too many and now the class features get subsumed by them.
So if you were going to do that massive combat / non-combat feat roll-out... the only reason to have that many would be if you removed quite a lot of class features from each class and turned them into feats just so that PCs would not be completely overwhelmed by too many abilities and features. Remove Rage and turn it into a feat. Remove Expertise and turn it into a feat. Remove Channel Divinity and turn it into a feat. Maybe then you'd have a reason to hand out so many Feats to every class.
At some point though... if you make so many Feats and hand them out to so many characters, you're approaching the point where specific classes don't really exist anymore, because most of a PC's abilities in one class end up being completely different from another PC in the supposed same class. Can you really say two characters are Wizards when more than half of their abilities don't even match up?
In the 3E days when feats were basically just dozens of bonus +1s and the like... you could hand those things out like candy because they made virtually no change to a character other than making their numbers bigger. But if 5E feats are supposed to give characters this new functionality and ability... you hand out too many and now the class features get subsumed by them.
fluffybunbunkittens
Hero
I like this idea! In practise, though, it would benefit casters disproportionately, because they get to only care about one stat, don't need fighting style feats to do their basic job, and it can be hard to draw a line between combat/non-combat spells (for cases where you offer any magical feats).
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Agreed. I don't want any part of a game that prescribes which feats I have to take and when. I want the choice to choose combat or non-combat for any or all of them.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
I don't know what 3e you were playing, but the one I was playing had very few feats that amounted to a mere +1. The vast majority were much stronger than that and/or gave new functionality and ability.
5e feats are like 2-3 feats put together, though, so they are bigger and better than most 3e feats.
Yaarel
He Mage
The level 4 feats are proper feats.
The 1st-level feats are really level 0 feats that characters acquire years earlier during the formative years as a teenager, during the character Origin.
The feats are only tangentially related to taking level 1 in a particular class.
The level 0 feats are more like a half-feat.
(Many of the Fighting Styles are not even worth a half-feat.)
The 1st-level feats are really level 0 feats that characters acquire years earlier during the formative years as a teenager, during the character Origin.
The feats are only tangentially related to taking level 1 in a particular class.
The level 0 feats are more like a half-feat.
(Many of the Fighting Styles are not even worth a half-feat.)
Corinnguard
Hero
It's almost the same story in Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition. Each of the heritages at 1st level can choose from a small number of heritage specific feat-like 'gifts'. When a character of a specific heritage reaches 10th level, they can receive a Paragon Gift. The Paragon Gift could either improve whichever 1st-level gift you originally picked or give you something completely new.
The Combat Maneuvers associated with A5e's 11 Combat Traditions did have a feat-like look to them. As for the Fighting Styles, it would be nice if they were feats again.
The Combat Maneuvers associated with A5e's 11 Combat Traditions did have a feat-like look to them. As for the Fighting Styles, it would be nice if they were feats again.
The point really wasn't what the numeric bonuses actually were, but merely that feats that just increase numeric bonuses do not change who your character is. Whereas class features are what create the class and if you overwhelm them by layering on too many random feats that are larger and change what or how your character does things... eventually your class loses a lot of its cohesive theming.
Horwath
Legend
class should give skeleton to your character and overall theme.
Feats you pick should flesh out your character.
Of course. But the chart you posted on the first page gave out 14 feats. That's no longer "fleshing out" your character, that's pretty much covering over your character. The specific features of the class get subsumed by all the random non-specific feats that end up dominating the PC. That's what I was reacting to.
