D&D (2024) 2024 Spell Changes

[ECMO3]

I'd totally missed the earlier comment about how they buffed Spirit Guardians.

So, enemies need to make a Wisdom save or take the damage 'whenever the Emanation enters a creature's space, but only once per turn'. So the Cleric should be running around the battlemap to tag every enemy once, then your party should grapple the Cleric and drag them around the place on their turns, to hit everyone more times.

There are a few big problems with doing this as a viable tactic:

1. Under the new rules they need to hit the Cleric with an unarmed strike to grapple them. So they lose at least an attack doing this and if they miss they could lose more.

2. The half movement when grappling would severely limit the ability to drag them around the map for everyone except Monks and Rogues ... and Rogues would be giving up a high damage attack to do this.

3. Most players are not going to want to do this.

 

[pukunui]

1. Under the new rules they need to hit the Cleric with an unarmed strike to grapple them. So they lose at least an attack doing this and if they miss they could lose more.

The cleric can voluntarily fail the save to avoid being grappled.

But I think you are right re: #3: most players aren't going to want to "waste" their turn dragging their comrade around the battlefield when they can potentially end the combat faster by hitting something themselves. (I think this is one of the biggest issues I still have with combat in D&D - it tends to get boringly static because directly dealing damage is still the most optimal choice. No one wants to spend an action interacting with the environment if it means not dealing any damage to the enemy that round.)

 

[mellored]

1. Under the new rules they need to hit the Cleric with an unarmed strike to grapple them. So they lose at least an attack doing this and if they miss they could lose more.

It's a saving throw, which they can fail.

2. The half movement when grappling

There's a feat for that.

Monks and Roges and Rogues. And Rogues would be giving up a high damage attack to do this.

Yea, I don't see Rogues doing it. Unlikely the zone damage is higher than sneak attack, unless you can get a lot of enemies.

Most melee won't be able to get away very easily either.

Monks could do it, but I don't think it's worth a bonus action to disengage and one of their attacks. You're probably better off using flurry to grab the enemy and drag them around. Unless there is a horde.

Maybe a caster, if they where going to use a cantrip anyways, and are already close. Probably not going to be a normal thing.

Level 11+ archer fighter could pull it off fairly well.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

The cleric can voluntarily fail the save to avoid being grappled.

It's not a saving throw to avoid being grappled, it's an attack roll by the grappler. Seems like you ought to be able to say you want to let them grapple you, but I'm not sure if that's actually RAW

Anyways, seems like a bunch of work to do FAR less damage than you could do by just casting Spike Growth and grappling

 

[Clint_L]

In my Mad Mage campaign, I currently have one player playing a dwarf forge cleric / watcher paladin / storm sorcerer. He has full plate that he has enchanted through his forge cleric feature. He also has a shield. And he’s got something else that gives him +2 to AC, so his base AC is 23. Thanks to his sorcerer level, he can also cast shield, making his AC 28 for a round.

He also likes to Dodge to impose disadvantage on enemy attack rolls. Oh, and for the rare occasion where I actually manage to get through all his defenses, he has the Lucky feat and can make me reroll (which more than likely causes me to miss).

He used to rely heavily on dodging plus spirit guardians, but “Halaster” got sick of him doing that, so for a while, every time he cast SG, some mage hunter creatures would appear and attack him. He now doesn’t use SG nearly as much, but he’s still all but impossible to hit.

Dex saves are one of his only weaknesses. (He also has things like the Dungeon Delver feat and a high Perception, so he can automatically find secret doors and resist damage from all the traps.)

He’s as close to being an unkillable “I win!” machine as it’s possible to get in vanilla 5e. One of the most frustrating character combos I’ve ever DMed for! We’re nearly finished the campaign, and I’ve asked the player not to make a character like this again.

If a player is going to optimize to that extent, I feel just fine optimizing the encounters they’ll face.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So the Cleric should be running around the battlemap to tag every enemy once

Played BG3?

 

[pukunui]

It's not a saving throw to avoid being grappled, it's an attack roll by the grappler. Seems like you ought to be able to say you want to let them grapple you, but I'm not sure if that's actually RAW

In the 2024 rules, when a PC attempts to grapple someone, their target makes a Str or Dex save. The 2024 rules for saves state that anyone can voluntarily fail a save. That was my point.

If a player is going to optimize to that extent, I feel just fine optimizing the encounters they’ll face.

Oh believe me I have, which makes things harder for the rest of the group … it has also resulted in them being over-leveled for much of the dungeon but eh … we’re nearly at the finish line! Last session they found the gate leading to Halaster’s lair!

 

[DrJawaPhD]

In the 2024 rules, when a PC attempts to grapple someone, their target makes a Str or Dex save. The 2024 rules for saves state that anyone can voluntarily fail a save. That was my point.

Do you get a saving throw to avoid being grappled? I thought the saving throw was only as an Action on your turn to escape the grapple (which you already just wouldn't bother doing if you wanted to be grappled)

I might be remembering the early playtest rules, I forget whether it got changed and none of the preview videos have really focused on grappling

 

[pukunui]

Do you get a saving throw to avoid being grappled? I thought the saving throw was only as an Action on your turn to escape the grapple (which you already just wouldn't bother doing if you wanted to be grappled)

I might be remembering the early playtest rules, I forget whether it got changed and none of the preview videos have really focused on grappling

In the 2024 rules, it is now a saving throw to avoid being grappled in the first place and an ability check (as an action) to escape if you failed the save and now have the grappled condition. No more opposed checks.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Anyways, seems like a bunch of work to do FAR less damage than you could do by just casting Spike Growth and grappling

Grappling is now much worse, as there's no way to increase the grapple save DC to make it more reliable (and it's always against the better of the target's Str/Dex). But Spike Growth does have a much higher ceiling against a single target (pushing weapon, Monk, Grappler feat, Speedy feat). That part just depends on the GM letting you 'drag or carry' someone diagonally from you...

Spirit Guardians meanwhile asks for no particular builds on your team, and you cannot avoid the damage, only halve it... but the only scaling it gets is through the number of enemies + upcasting the spell. It's like a base level of performance that applies at all times, and if my team was facing 10 Orcs, I would gladly spend one of my attacks on grappling the Cleric to deal an automatic average 6 x 10 = 60 damage to the group.