D&D (2024) 2025's Ancient Green Dragon Stat Block From The New Monster Manual

The new ancient green dragon from the 2025 Monster Manual was previewed at Gen Con.

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[dave2008]

not really, the issue is more that it gives zero guidance, 1 bite / 2 claws does that. It also allows for a bite to be mechanically different from a claw attack or a tail swipe, as you said below



To me that added guidance and flavor is worth a slight more complex stat block

That is what I am, and have been, getting at too. I am just trying to get those you disagree to clarify their thoughts so I can try to understand them better.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah, I know. I'm in "separate attacks" camp. I think added complexity is perfectly fine for a high level solo boss.

That is fine, so am I. I want to hear from the other side so I can understand. Right now that is mostly @Stalker0 and @Demetrios1453 whom I both respect a lot. However, their reasoning has not really made sense to me yet so I am hoping they will come back with more clarity.

 

[Zaukrie]

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to suggest. Or maybe why your are saying this / what is the relevance of this statement.

You're questioning if other DMs can improvise rend, and I'm saying it doesn't matter.

 

[dave2008]

You're questioning if other DMs can improvise rend, and I'm saying it doesn't matter.

OK. I think it does matter.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You could do all of that with separate claw, bite, wing, and tail attacks too.

I'm still thinking this over. I like the simplification, but I also feel it could restrict some DMs and not be the creative foundation it is for you. I also like small variations in the attack (reach, effects, etc.) which I can do on the fly, but I am not sure all DMs can.

My experience from 4e is that many people feel stuck to only using what is explicitly in the stat block. Not an issue I had, but one I have seen many times. That is leading me to try to find a happy middle between the two - I am just not there yet.

I mean sure, but I also look at the Wight's slam attack from 2014. What is it? Well... what ever unarmed attack you want. Or the monk's unarmed strike. Can you headbutt? Sure, why not. It counts. Be weird for grappling.... but we do actually have a rule in grapples that say you need a hand free, so there are plenty of ways to make that function.

 

[dave2008]

I mean sure, but I also look at the Wight's slam attack from 2014. What is it? Well... what ever unarmed attack you want. Or the monk's unarmed strike. Can you headbutt? Sure, why not. It counts. Be weird for grappling.... but we do actually have a rule in grapples that say you need a hand free, so there are plenty of ways to make that function.

I am honestly less concerned with low level creatures. A simple attack like a slam or rend works perfectly well for them and leaves space for more interesting actions or traits.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Yep, I can't think of way to make this (rend) work and not make it more difficult for new DMs.

As I mentioned before, we're not seeing the entire entry for green dragons here. There could very well be text like "The green dragon uses is teeth and claws to perform fearsome rend attacks" on the previous pages. It's wouldn't be in the stat block itself, but there for any DM to read. If a new DM misses that by not reading up on the monster they are using, well, that's a salutary lesson for a new DM to learn in properly doing their research.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I am honestly less concerned with low level creatures. A simple attack like a slam or rend works perfectly well for them and leaves space for more interesting actions or traits.

Sure, but I think there is a difference between mechanical differences and descriptive differences. You can say "well, it doesn't make sense that the dragon hitting you with their tail doesn't throw you back" but I can make the exact same argument for a Storm Giant using a Greatclub bigger than my character, or a Treat sweeping you with a massive branch arm.

I don't think the attacks need to be mechanically different, to be described differently. I can understand the disconnect but... it already happens. I already take liberties with descriptions that don't have mechanical effects like saying "you stumble back from the blow" without them moving a full 5 ft. on the map.

Edit: Which also, I think, making mechanical changes like reducing the damage by 10 pt and turning that into 10 ft of movement, is not something I think new DMs should concern themselves with, because it ends up being a little finnicky.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

As I mentioned before, we're not seeing the entire entry for green dragons here. There could very well be text like "The green dragon uses is teeth and claws to perform fearsome rend attacks" on the previous pages. It's wouldn't be in the stat block itself, but there for any DM to read. If a new DM misses that by not reading up on the monster they are using, well, that's a salutary lesson for a new DM to learn in properly doing their research.

That is not the point. Different attacks should actually do different things. Bite should be able to grapple the target, and even swallow them whole, tail should have longer reach and knock people around etc. Mechanics should make it feel like you're fighting an actual bus-sized lizard, and not a boring MMO boss who just makes an attack animation vaguely to your direction and depletes you HP.

 

[dave2008]

Sure, but I think there is a difference between mechanical differences and descriptive differences. You can say "well, it doesn't make sense that the dragon hitting you with their tail doesn't throw you back" but I can make the exact same argument for a Storm Giant using a Greatclub bigger than my character, or a Treat sweeping you with a massive branch arm.

I don't think the attacks need to be mechanically different, to be described differently. I can understand the disconnect but... it already happens. I already take liberties with descriptions that don't have mechanical effects like saying "you stumble back from the blow" without them moving a full 5 ft. on the map.

Again, I think it is less about what you or I can do. I am thinking about others less experienced, willing, or able to work outside the box.

And even beyond different effects, the attacks should have different ranges. I mean look at the art - that tail has a lot longer reach than the claws!

Also, as I have said repeatedly, I am not opposed to the generic rend type attacks in general. I am just trying to find some middle ground that would satisfy both sides. I am not having much luck.