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D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

Sorcerer dealing 78 damage in a single turn.
Wizard dealing 28 damage in a single turn.

Wiz: how did you do that?
Sorc: It doesn't matter to you, clown.
Fighter: We have been in this dungeon for 6 days and moved 40 feet.
Rogue: I was only planning to be out for a week, I am running out of food.
Cleric: I don't know about you guys, but I say we leave him here.
Rogue: Good idea, we can leave Howard the kobold torchbearer with him.
Wizard: Yep, I see no reason to stop, I don't even need a short rest yet.

12 hours later, the party walk quietly by the sorcerer, having cleaned out the dungeon, collected all the treasure and leveled. They decide to take Howard with them.
 

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My sorcerer has incredible damage and is not afraid of the frontline. High HP. Decent AC, I love cast Dragon's Breath for 1 minute of Insanity. Action to Fire Breath + Quicken Fireball + Radiant soul takes completely insane damage in AOE The Wizard looks. "WTF is that?"
"Oh... using your own action for Dragon's Breath? How quaint." says the Wizard, as a lightning breathing owl familiar dive-bombs you.
 

Let's see. This thread has gone from the sorcerer ruling the world because he magically casts wish multiple times a day and getting an army of celestials somehow ... to a sorcerer is really good at hiding in a broom closet ... to a sorcerer has slightly better nova capabilities as long as they can rest afterwards?

If feels like the goalposts are moving just a wee bit. :unsure:
 

Let's see. This thread has gone from the sorcerer ruling the world because he magically casts wish multiple times a day and getting an army of celestials somehow ... to a sorcerer is really good at hiding in a broom closet ... to a sorcerer has slightly better nova capabilities as long as they can rest afterwards?

If feels like the goalposts are moving just a wee bit. :unsure:
That's only because you assumed you knew where they were to begin with!

Classic Calvinball beginner mistake.
 

Hence, it also highlights the need for a DM to adjudicate everything apart from a simple straight-out fight and some spells and abilities need a DM to weigh in even then. That means there is a great deal of variation between games and tables - an "unbeatable" DM PC in one game is anything but in another.
I would go even further. In highlights the inherent futility of engaging a player’s PC when that player is also the DM.

Thus DMPCs.
 

Let's see. This thread has gone from the sorcerer ruling the world because he magically casts wish multiple times a day and getting an army of celestials somehow ... to a sorcerer is really good at hiding in a broom closet ... to a sorcerer has slightly better nova capabilities as long as they can rest afterwards?

If feels like the goalposts are moving just a wee bit. :unsure:
To be fair to the OP the focus of the conversation changed. These theoretical PvP challenges are all fine and dandy, but do not really translate well into real ongoing games with other players. Okay sorcerers are great, but I don't want to play just sorcerers for the next 20 years. My preferences for classes and races to play change from campaign to campaign Plus, when players do smart ass things like this, the DM will respond with encounters to better challenge the party and a character that expends all of his resources every single fight and then needs a long rest, the other players are not going to be happy.
 

"An ordinary rogue with magic initiate is your equal with at least 4 of the skills with no resource expenditure 24/7 before factoring in any subclass benefits, races or feats. Call it stealth, insight, perception, investigation, and 90% of your approach mechanics turn into a coin toss. (Actually it's worse than that since at 20, rogues can use stroke of luck to make an ability check roll turn into a 20 1x/SR, which means if the rogue looks for you and you are present, they will find you)."

Congratulations, this is the rogue's job. But the Sorcerer does it better and It's a full caster with more spell known that Wizard's prepared spell and metamagic.

Rogue's Reliable talent is restricted to skills that he is proficient at. Skill Empowerment is for any skill. Trance of Order is for any skill, saving throw and attack roll.
So, It's Skill Empowerment to give expertise to every skill on the game.
Magical Guidance to reroll failed skill checks (1 sp only, the level 20 Sorcerer has a lot of spells slots. reallly, a lot).
Minions's Help action for advantage.
Minions's Guidance

Yes, it costs SP. But that is not a problem for Sorcerer's Sorcerous Restoration.


"And there's more, rogues are this good at all of these skills at the same time. So while your sorcerer is burning a 5th level spell slot to be temporarily rogue-like in stealth, they can't be similarly rogue-like in perception so they are vulnerable to other stealthy parties."

The Sorcerer has Skill Expert feat (Stealth), Extended/Subtle Pass without trace, advantage, Shadow mark +1d4, guidance +1d4 and Trance of Order. It also has acess to powerful stealth spells invisibility and greater invisibility that is enhanced with Subtle Spell (not revealing himself). It's also hidden against divination, rogue not.
Also Spells like Ethrealness, Action to reapper + Quicken Spell is really deadly combo against enemies.
If he is detected, contigency spell casts Greater Invisibility and Seeming Spell allows him change his appaerence to avoid hostility against him.
This is enough to guarantee an infallible murder.
When Rogue attack It reveals himself. While Sorcerer's Sneaky Casting doesn't reveal himself, for impunity.
Sorcerer's perception is also strong, The Sorcerer can cast Skill Empowerment for perception to usu Search Action. It's 25~35+1d4 on perception check. Are you sure about that?

The Sorcerer is better, more reliable, a lot of resources avaiable, a lot of buffs allows him to incredible good.
Sorcerer is not only better than Rogue, no. He simply does everything better than rogue and with full casting spellcaster with sneaky casting.
Yes..it is a rogue's job, and all it takes for a sorcerer to match it for 1 relevant skill out of the 4 or so skills that apply to stealth and detection for 1 minute out of the 1440 minutes in the day is a 5th level spell and the use of a class feature.

Skill Empowerment and pass without a trace are both concentration spells, which means your sorcerer can only be rogue-level good at hiding or seeking at a time, while the rogue is rogue-level good at those things always (and 1/SR can just choose to max roll on any skill)

If he's detected, greater invisibility does nothing for him, because stroke of luck let's rogues turn misses into hits.

Besides all this, so far all you've described is a way for your sorcerer to spend a bunch of resources to maybe beat a featless raceless subclassless rogue at hide and seek. You still haven't demonstrated how your sorcerer actually does any harm to that rogue.
 

To be fair to the OP the focus of the conversation changed. These theoretical PvP challenges are all fine and dandy, but do not really translate well into real ongoing games with other players. Okay sorcerers are great, but I don't want to play just sorcerers for the next 20 years. My preferences for classes and races to play change from campaign to campaign Plus, when players do smart ass things like this, the DM will respond with encounters to better challenge the party and a character that expends all of his resources every single fight and then needs a long rest, the other players are not going to be happy.
I don't need better encounters, just need to interrupt his short rest and he's dead...

Rests arer not granted in my games if you rest inside a hostile territory chances are you won't get 1 hour to rest without a patrol coming by your side, especially if you already murdered some of the dungeon dwellers...
 

To be fair to the OP the focus of the conversation changed. These theoretical PvP challenges are all fine and dandy, but do not really translate well into real ongoing games with other players. Okay sorcerers are great, but I don't want to play just sorcerers for the next 20 years. My preferences for classes and races to play change from campaign to campaign Plus, when players do smart ass things like this, the DM will respond with encounters to better challenge the party and a character that expends all of his resources every single fight and then needs a long rest, the other players are not going to be happy.

To be clear I have no problem with sorcerers. I haven't played one yet in 5E but then again I don't play often and I enjoy playing melee types as well and they always seem to be in short supply.

Having a PC that can go nova now and then is handy, but it's not the be-all-end-all. That and no single PC no matter what class or build is going to take over the world single handedly. This whole topic just seems an odd topic to be approaching a thousand posts to me. But never mind me. Carry on. 🤷‍♂️
 

To be clear I have no problem with sorcerers. I haven't played one yet in 5E but then again I don't play often and I enjoy playing melee types as well and they always seem to be in short supply.

Having a PC that can go nova now and then is handy, but it's not the be-all-end-all. That and no single PC no matter what class or build is going to take over the world single handedly. This whole topic just seems an odd topic to be approaching a thousand posts to me. But never mind me. Carry on. 🤷‍♂️
THIS! +1
I have been saying for days. I have nothing against sorcerers either, I have played the class, I just don't believe they are the end all and be all of D&D 5E game play theory. This mental exercise is mildly entertaining, but at the end of the day, it is not D&D, it is more like cowboys and Indians as played by 8 year olds. Other players keep saying, I shot you and you died, with the OP loudly replying, Na Uh, you missed! The conversation shifted towards actual play, and the proclamation that sorcerers are the bestest, became even more silly.
 

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