D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[Jfdlsjfd]

Your math is wrong.
d6 without empower.

(1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6)/6 = 3.5

With Empower

(3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5 +4 +5 +6)/6
= 4.25

You know that you're doing the exact same calculation? 3 dice at 4.25 and 6 dice at 3.5 is... 33,75. Including Elemental Adept to treat any residual one as 2 (an increase of 1/6 of the average) is 33.75+9/6 = 35. Plus Elemental Affinity, plus Radiant Consumption. That's 46. As calculated above.

I think your error is in taking youro 4.25 average for all 9 dice, while Empower allows you to :

When you roll damage for a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). You must use the new rolls.

So it's at most 3 dice, and more probably 2. If it were 9 dice, requiring a CHA of 28, you'd get the damage of 55. But how could your 8th level Sorcerer have 28 CHA ?

It's 52 damage. One Shotting the Wizard

No, by your own calculations...

78 damage with Quicken Fireball and Firebolt

Counting from you faulty 52 damage on the QE Fireball, it would leave 26 damage on a 2d10 firebolt. Elemental Affinity allows you to add you damage modifier (for some reading of the rules to which I happen to subscribe). Even with Elemental Adept that allows to treat 1s as 2s, for an average of 5.6, that's 11.2+3 (at most). How you you arrive to 26 damage on a firebolt?

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Let's see. This thread has gone from the sorcerer ruling the world because he magically casts wish multiple times a day and getting an army of celestials somehow ... to a sorcerer is really good at hiding in a broom closet ... to a sorcerer has slightly better nova capabilities as long as they can rest afterwards?

If feels like the goalposts are moving just a wee bit.

Yes. And the worst thing is that nobody debates that an 8th level full caster can nova well. It's their schtick, after all (until Wizard get to benefit from their widened spellcasting choices as the campaign generally moves toward more control of the timing by the players in my experience.

The whole topic isn't really about 1x1 PVP experience but about a shared storytelling experiment in which the various denizens of Foggy Bottom, who all happen to be high level characters are endlessley threatened by a slew of murderous sorcerer following strange plans to achieve killing one of them permanently like Wile E. Coyote trying to catch his prey.

 

[Nitrosaur]

Hey, can't a sphynx just travel back in time, or send assassins back to kill the sorcerer as a baby, or before it got so good at crying in a corner? That's another creature that deals easily with the demigod of nothing.

 

[Hohige]

Yes..it is a rogue's job, and all it takes for a sorcerer to match it for 1 relevant skill out of the 4 or so skills that apply to stealth and detection for 1 minute out of the 1440 minutes in the day is a 5th level spell and the use of a class feature.

Skill Empowerment and pass without a trace are both concentration spells, which means your sorcerer can only be rogue-level good at hiding or seeking at a time, while the rogue is rogue-level good at those things always (and 1/SR can just choose to max roll on any skill)

If he's detected, greater invisibility does nothing for him, because stroke of luck let's rogues turn misses into hits.

Besides all this, so far all you've described is a way for your sorcerer to spend a bunch of resources to maybe beat a featless raceless subclassless rogue at hide and seek. You still haven't demonstrated how your sorcerer actually does any harm to that rogue.

"Skill Empowerment and pass without a trace are both concentration spells, which means your sorcerer can only be rogue-level good at hiding or seeking at a time, while the rogue is rogue-level good at those things always (and 1/SR can just choose to max roll on any skill)"

I strongly disagree.

I'll explain to you how to do Seeking and Hiding.

Hiding: Sorcerer's Casts Subtle/Exteded Skill Empowerment (Expertise on any skill) casted on himself or MMD simulacrum + Simulacrum's Subtle/Extended pass without trace.
37~47+2d4 Stealth check. You roll once against creatures passive perception, you remain hidden until revealed. The Rogue can't beat him.

Seeking: With Subtle/Extended Skill Empowerment on the MMD simulacrum or himself
Her perception check is d20 with advantage + 17 +1d4. Each turn, means 37+1d4 Perception check. She can do it flying on her Pegasus.
Each turn with Search action.

Another way is cast it on Ethrealness plane and the MMD Simulacrum will find literally anything.
It's amazing to detect Wizard's traps. Skill Empowerment (Investigation)+ Trance of Order automatically knows every Wizard's traps.
The Sorcerer use action to reappear, casts Quicken Wish Duplicating Dark Star
The Simulacrum action to reappear and casts Quicken Wall of Force.

Bye bye. It's a deadly sentense against everything. Including rogue.

 

[Earth2Carnifex]

"Skill Empowerment and pass without a trace are both concentration spells, which means your sorcerer can only be rogue-level good at hiding or seeking at a time, while the rogue is rogue-level good at those things always (and 1/SR can just choose to max roll on any skill)"

I strongly disagree.

I'll explain to you how to do Seeking and Hiding.

Hiding: Sorcerer's Casts Subtle/Exteded Skill Empowerment (Expertise on any skill) casted on himself or MMD simulacrum + Simulacrum's Subtle/Extended pass without trace.
37~47+2d4 Stealth check. You roll once against creatures passive perception, you remain hidden until revealed. The Rogue can't beat him.

Seeking: With Subtle/Extended Skill Empowerment on the MMD simulacrum or himself
Her perception check is d20 with advantage + 17 +1d4. Each turn, means 37+1d4 Perception check. She can do it flying on her Pegasus.
Each turn with Search action.

Another way is cast it on Ethrealness plane and the MMD Simulacrum will find literally anything.
It's amazing to detect Wizard's traps. Skill Empowerment (Investigation)+ Trance of Order automatically knows every Wizard's traps.
The Sorcerer use action to reappear, casts Quicken Wish Duplicating Dark Star
The Simulacrum action to reappear and casts Quicken Wall of Force.

Bye bye. It's a deadly sentense against everything. Including rogue.

Does this apply to the sorcerer when he is on stage giving his telepathic speeches about hate and bigotry towards wizards? I am asking for a friend.

 

[Earth2Carnifex]

The best thing to come out of this thread has been the development of Foggy Bottom as a suburb of Candlekeep. I wonder if Ed Greenwood is accepting submissions.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

"Skill Empowerment and pass without a trace are both concentration spells, which means your sorcerer can only be rogue-level good at hiding or seeking at a time, while the rogue is rogue-level good at those things always (and 1/SR can just choose to max roll on any skill)"

I strongly disagree.

I'll explain to you how to do Seeking and Hiding.

Hiding: Sorcerer's Casts Subtle/Exteded Skill Empowerment (Expertise on any skill) casted on himself or MMD simulacrum + Simulacrum's Subtle/Extended pass without trace.

At this point, both the Lazy One and his simulacrum are concentrating, one of PWT, the other on SE, to make the sorceror better.

37~47+2d4 Stealth check. You roll once against creatures passive perception, you remain hidden until revealed. The Rogue can't beat him.

Seeking: With Subtle/Extended Skill Empowerment on the MMD simulacrum or himself

So you just lost concentration on either of the former spells because SE on the Search skill needs your concentration again.

Her perception check is d20 with advantage + 17 +1d4. Each turn, means 37+1d4 Perception check.

OK...

She can do it flying on her Pegasus.
Each turn with Search action.

You never mentionned a Pagasus for this brand. It was the original incarnation that had one. Care to explain?

Another way is cast it on Ethrealness plane and the MMD Simulacrum will find literally anything.

Searching doesn't extend through plane. You'll find things on the Ethereal plane only. Even if you could based on the fact you can vaguely see the grayish form from the Material Plane, "you can’t see anything more than 60 feet away". This preclude searching from a flying mount's back, unless you're flying really low.

It's amazing to detect Wizard's traps. Skill Empowerment (Investigation)+ Trance of Order automatically knows every Wizard's traps.
The Sorcerer use action to reappear, casts Quicken Wish Duplicating Dark Star
The Simulacrum action to reappear and casts Quicken Wall of Force.

Bye bye. It's a deadly sentense against everything. Including rogue.

So he is no longer 8th level? He no longers dispels preventively contingencies and the Wizard Simulacrum? There are so many variation waiting to be defeated in their own way.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Does this apply to the sorcerer when he is on stage giving his telepathic speeches about hate and bigotry towards wizards? I am asking for a friend.

Suspicious Guy appears on stage, floating. It's a Magen, delivering a Telepathic Speech, while a Simulacrum DMM floats on her summoned Pegasus. Theme of the Speech: Wizards should be killed.

Hilarity ensues.

 

[Earth2Carnifex]

Deleted

 

[Gammadoodler]

"Skill Empowerment and pass without a trace are both concentration spells, which means your sorcerer can only be rogue-level good at hiding or seeking at a time, while the rogue is rogue-level good at those things always (and 1/SR can just choose to max roll on any skill)"

I strongly disagree.

I'll explain to you how to do Seeking and Hiding.

Hiding: Sorcerer's Casts Subtle/Exteded Skill Empowerment (Expertise on any skill) casted on himself or MMD simulacrum + Simulacrum's Subtle/Extended pass without trace.
37~47+2d4 Stealth check. You roll once against creatures passive perception, you remain hidden until revealed. The Rogue can't beat him.

Seeking: With Subtle/Extended Skill Empowerment on the MMD simulacrum or himself
Her perception check is d20 with advantage + 17 +1d4. Each turn, means 37+1d4 Perception check. She can do it flying on her Pegasus.
Each turn with Search action.

Another way is cast it on Ethrealness plane and the MMD Simulacrum will find literally anything.
It's amazing to detect Wizard's traps. Skill Empowerment (Investigation)+ Trance of Order automatically knows every Wizard's traps.
The Sorcerer use action to reappear, casts Quicken Wish Duplicating Dark Star
The Simulacrum action to reappear and casts Quicken Wall of Force.

Bye bye. It's a deadly sentense against everything. Including rogue.

So is your DMM/simulacrum in the sky doing active perception checks, or close to you with Pw/oAT. BC it's hard to hide in the sky on a flying horse, and if they (pegasus and/or rider) get within range, they will get picked off (and I don't really see how you get to make perception checks from beyond max weapon range or how they'd communicate what they found to your sorcerer).

Also, the rogues can search for you with their action and hide with their bonus action, every turn, and they should be since you're a known murderer. So there's no 'I beat your passive, lol' stuff to pull here.

And Trance (again) only lasts one minute, so you'd have to know when you should use it. which is the conundrum, right.. None of your creatures has the passive perception to find any vanilla rogue with their lowest roll to hide (27 without guidance). So you'd never know to be looking to start burning those trance minutes, spell slots, and sorcery points.

And, even if you did, the rogue could just take 20 on their hide check (for a total of 37 without guidance). Sure, under exactly the right circumstances, that is a beatable check, but it's for sure not an easy one.

And all this is still without subclasses, races, or feats. Could be a deep gnome with the deep gnome feat for at will Nondetection for no spell slot. Could be an arcane trickster for spell thief, where you have to make a save or lose your alpha strike.

And..all this is assuming you're getting to fight a single target. There are 6 of these rogues out there, and you're burning through spell slots and sorcery points like crazy, while they're spending...nothing.