# 26th level rogue vs. Smiley McFirePants

#### Puggins

##### Explorer
Supporter
Anyone compare the rogue to the pit fiend? The information is incomplete, but Mr. Burny is looking nastier and nastier all the time.

26th level rogue, started with 18 dex, now has 24, wielding a dagger +5, for a dex attack check of +26.

A rogue who beats the Pit Fiend's initiative will swing in with a Crimson Edge vs. Fortitude roll of +24 (aura) versus 42.

On an 18+, he inflicts 2d4 + 10 + 5d6 + 7 = 40 damage, and puts in a DOT of ~7 hp / round or so.

On a 17-, he inflicts 20.

Meanwhile, he has around 150hp or so, and is taking 15 damage from the aura per round. He also has to deal with the summoned minions and the Pit Fiend's attacks.

We have a very incomplete picture, but the Pit Fiend looks a lot more dangerous than it initially did.

#### fafhrd

##### First Post
Thankfully there ought to be some decent reflex attacks at that level.

#### Stormtalon

##### First Post
Actually, yep -- did somethin' quite similar down in the 4E Abilities thread. Here's my post from there in full:

Me said:
Pardon whilst I indulge in a bit of mathematical noodling here -- working things out as I type them, then I'll just post the whole mess.

Lemme first start with the same setup (for simplicity's sake): Joe Generic the Rogue with 18 Dex, comparing his various Deft Strike attack rolls vs our friend Maximilan Von Evil, the Pit Fiend and his defenses: AC 44; Fortitude 42, Reflex 38, Will 40

Joe Generic is level 26, no magic items, using dagger. Assume no BAB. Rolls Dex vs AC to hit Mr Von Evil. 13 + 4 + 1 == 18, needs nat 20 to hit. Not good.

Joe is level 26, has magic dagger (based on the one magic weapon we've seen, assume level/3 equals the bonus). Rolls Dex vs AC to poke a hole in Von Evil. 13 + 4 + 8 + 1 (Dagger is +8, has +1 to hit with daggers) == 26. Needs 18 or more to hit. Still borderline, though Piercing Strike would hit Reflex Def on 12 or more. Almost right.

Finally Joe is level 26, has increased Dex at 1/4 levels. Dex is now 24. Again, tries to stick a knife between Von Evil's ribs. 16 + 4 + 8 + 1 == 29. Now hits on 15 or higher, and Piercing Strike goes in on 9+. Ok, that seems about right, yes?

Unified mechanic it is!

Now, I didn't work out damage dealt or anything; I was more concerned about what the rogue's chances were to hit Sr. Pit Fiend with various different mathematical models. I do think your weapon is on the low side; by 11th level, the warlock mentioned in the Magic Items blog post already had a +3 weapon and the current thinking is the math boils down to being +1 for every 3 levels or so. Conveniently, that would wind up with +10 weapons at level 30, which is the top end of current Epic weapon bonuses, so it makes sense.

#### Puggins

##### Explorer
Supporter
Wow... well, you gotta forgive an aging 1er for still thinking of +5 as the pinnacle of weapons.

But +8 would make a lot more sense in that regard. Crimson Edge would hit 30% of the time, which ain't horrible given the advantage it gives, and we haven't seen any of the paragon or epic powers.

Still, that Pit Fiend is not a pushover.

#### UngeheuerLich

##### Legend
i bet assumed magical bonus is level/4 otherwise you end up with 2/5 of your power depending on magical equip.

1/3 seems a lot better...

#### WhatGravitas

##### Explorer
Puggins said:
Still, that Pit Fiend is not a pushover.
Especially since it's an 'Elite' monster, counting as two monsters. Of four. So a "reasonable encounter" would involve two Pit Fiends, if the rogue is on 26th level (plus his friends, of course).

Cheers, LT.

#### mach1.9pants

yeah Crimson Edge is a level 9 power while the pit fiend is level 25, a big difference. 3E terms a spell useable at level 6 (3rd level, lightening bolt 6d6) vs a CR 16 or so monster.

#### catsclaw227

##### First Post
Puggins said:
A rogue who beats the Pit Fiend's initiative will swing in with a Crimson Edge vs. Fortitude roll of +24 (aura) versus 42.

On an 18+, he inflicts 2d4 + 10 + 5d6 + 7 = 40 damage, and puts in a DOT of ~7 hp / round or so.

On a 17-, he inflicts 20.
OK, so he uses his 9th level Crimson Edge "per encounter" attack one round for 20 damage on a miss, and the next round he does his 26th level Ultraman Tumble Sneak FireBlade "per encounter" attack for 60 damage and Combat Advantage on a hit the next round.

EDIT: And this is just one of four PCs dealing the smackdown.

#### Stormtalon

##### First Post
I also have a suspicion based on skimming thru SWSE that certain classes get "freebie" increases to primary stats every so often, so the rogue's Dex may very well be higher than what we're using for calculations. We're also not taking into consideration things like Flanking and other situational bonuses, but I don't really think we need to to get a good idea of the basics at this point.

#### Sphyre

##### First Post
As long as we're speculating:

Puggins said:
26th level rogue, started with 18 dex, now has 24, wielding a dagger +5, for a dex attack check of +26.

Not including any other bonuses he might have gotten from his class through the levels, if there are some.

Puggins said:
A rogue who beats the Pit Fiend's initiative will swing in with a Crimson Edge vs. Fortitude roll of +24 (aura) versus 42.

Fortitude seems to be the Pit Fiends strength, while the rogue's strength is to attack the Dex. Being as he's using a heroic tier ability as opposed to an epic tier ability, Crimson edge is probably not his best choice of abilities to use.

Puggins said:
On an 18+, he inflicts 2d4 + 10 + 5d6 + 7 = 40 damage, and puts in a DOT of ~7 hp / round or so.

Assuming you don't do 1/2 character level in damage in addition to all attacks, as seems to be a common presumption.

Puggins said:
Meanwhile, he has around 150hp or so, and is taking 15 damage from the aura per round. He also has to deal with the summoned minions and the Pit Fiend's attacks.

We have a very incomplete picture, but the Pit Fiend looks a lot more dangerous than it initially did.

It initially didn't look very powerful? That's because people looked at it through the eyes of 3e 9th level spells vs it, as opposed to 4e characters not getting iterative attacks or dealing 2000 damage whenever they want to nova.

I'd surmise that characters get quite a few more tricks up their sleeves to help it handle the pit fiend better, but it still won't be a walk in the park.

#### Puggins

##### Explorer
Supporter
catsclaw227 said:
OK, so he uses his 9th level Crimson Edge "per encounter" attack one round for 20 damage on a miss, and the next round he does his 26th level Ultraman Tumble Sneak FireBlade "per encounter" attack for 60 damage and Combat Advantage on a hit the next round.

Crimson Edge is a Daily attack. I expect higher Daily powers to be a lot more impressive, but we're talking about the premiere heroic tier power for rogues, so it's not trivial.

EDIT: And this is just one of four PCs dealing the smackdown.

One of two. The Pit Fiend is a challenge for two characters, being an elite monster. Two Pit Fiends will fight a party of four, along with the 10+ summoned level 21+ devils they bring to the table. Given their teleport ability and all their minions, I'd say ganging up on a single one is going to be challenging- but then again, we are talking about 26th level characters- who knows?

Any which way, the rogue is a striker, and his damage output isn't eclipsing the pit fiends ability to survive by any stretch.

#### catsclaw227

##### First Post
Sphyre said:
It initially didn't look very powerful? That's because people looked at it through the eyes of 3e 9th level spells vs it, as opposed to 4e characters not getting iterative attacks or dealing 2000 damage whenever they want to nova.
Exactly.

I wondered why there was so much hub-bub about how horribly nerfed and weak the new Pit Fiend was. Context, people, context!

#### gtJormungand

##### First Post
Stormtalon said:
I also have a suspicion based on skimming thru SWSE that certain classes get "freebie" increases to primary stats every so often, so the rogue's Dex may very well be higher than what we're using for calculations.

Star Wars Saga Edition doesn't give any freebie stat increases at all. Instead, you get 2 stat bumps to different stats every four levels.

As far as that goes, though, we don't really know what the ability score ranges are going to be in 4e or how they increase.

#### catsclaw227

##### First Post
Puggins said:
Crimson Edge is a Daily attack. I expect higher Daily powers to be a lot more impressive, but we're talking about the premiere heroic tier power for rogues, so it's not trivial.

Yes, I just read that as you were posting. My bad. But still, we need to keep it in context. We also don't know that it's the premier heroic tier power for rogues. And I would imagine that top-shelf heroic characters would pee pee their diapers at the mere sight of a pit fiend, so comparing a per day power of heroic tier to how it would affect a pit fiend might not be relevant (note: I said MIGHT not be).

Puggins said:
One of two. The Pit Fiend is a challenge for two characters, being an elite monster. Two Pit Fiends will fight a party of four, along with the 10+ summoned level 21+ devils they bring to the table. Given their teleport ability and all their minions, I'd say ganging up on a single one is going to be challenging- but then again, we are talking about 26th level characters- who knows?

Any which way, the rogue is a striker, and his damage output isn't eclipsing the pit fiends ability to survive by any stretch.
Yes, that's true. But as you said, if the PCs gang up on one of them, it could go down fairly quickly. No need to split the attacks if not necessary. Better to drop one fast, than let them both bash away on you.

On a side note, if a 4e pit fiend gets killed, do his summoned minions vanish or fight until death?

#### catsclaw227

##### First Post
<tangent>

If I was an imaginary pit fiend and my DM named me Smiley McFirePants, I'd reach through my Monster Manual and wring his neck.

Because I would want myself to be aligned with Daire Donn, High King of the Great World. An' bein' given an Irish surname would raise me hackles sometin' fierce.

EDIT: wow, that was totally irrelevant and nonsensical. darn coffee.

#### fafhrd

##### First Post
Binding Smite
Encounter • Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: 2x[W] + Wis damage and target cannot gain line of effect to anyone but you until the end of your next turn.
Nearly level appropriate power for comparison purposes. Hehe, no irresistible command.

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#### ZombieRoboNinja

##### First Post
Let's not forget that leaders may give their allies bonuses to hit, and some classes (like warlocks) might give their enemies penalties to AC and defenses.

#### helium3

##### First Post
fafhrd said:
Nearly level appropriate power for comparison purposes. Hehe, no irresistible command.

Speaking of which, a Paladin that uses that ability becomes the Pit Piend's only target for Irresistible Command.

#### fafhrd

##### First Post
Ranged Irresistible Command (minor 1/round; at-will) • Charm, Fire
Range 10; affects one allied devil of lower level than the pit fiend; the target immediately slides up to 5 squares and explodes, dealing 2d10+5 fire damage to all creatures in a close burst 2. The exploding devil is destroyed.
Right. So no irresistible command. Pretty sweet. Although, it also means the paladin is likely going to experience one really painful round.

#### Ashardalon

##### First Post
helium3 said:
Speaking of which, a Paladin that uses that ability becomes the Pit Piend's only target for Irresistible Command.
I'd say a paladin using that power against the pit fiend is, in all likelyhood, not a devil of lower level allied with the pit fiend. In fact, the paladin would probably fail all three criteria.

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