26th level rogue vs. Smiley McFirePants

[Puggins]

Anyone compare the rogue to the pit fiend? The information is incomplete, but Mr. Burny is looking nastier and nastier all the time.

26th level rogue, started with 18 dex, now has 24, wielding a dagger +5, for a dex attack check of +26.

A rogue who beats the Pit Fiend's initiative will swing in with a Crimson Edge vs. Fortitude roll of +24 (aura) versus 42.

On an 18+, he inflicts 2d4 + 10 + 5d6 + 7 = 40 damage, and puts in a DOT of ~7 hp / round or so.

On a 17-, he inflicts 20.

Meanwhile, he has around 150hp or so, and is taking 15 damage from the aura per round. He also has to deal with the summoned minions and the Pit Fiend's attacks.

We have a very incomplete picture, but the Pit Fiend looks a lot more dangerous than it initially did.

 

[fafhrd]

Thankfully there ought to be some decent reflex attacks at that level.

 

[Stormtalon]

Actually, yep -- did somethin' quite similar down in the 4E Abilities thread. Here's my post from there in full:

Pardon whilst I indulge in a bit of mathematical noodling here -- working things out as I type them, then I'll just post the whole mess.

Lemme first start with the same setup (for simplicity's sake): Joe Generic the Rogue with 18 Dex, comparing his various Deft Strike attack rolls vs our friend Maximilan Von Evil, the Pit Fiend and his defenses: AC 44; Fortitude 42, Reflex 38, Will 40

Joe Generic is level 26, no magic items, using dagger. Assume no BAB. Rolls Dex vs AC to hit Mr Von Evil. 13 + 4 + 1 == 18, needs nat 20 to hit. Not good.

Joe is level 26, has magic dagger (based on the one magic weapon we've seen, assume level/3 equals the bonus). Rolls Dex vs AC to poke a hole in Von Evil. 13 + 4 + 8 + 1 (Dagger is +8, has +1 to hit with daggers) == 26. Needs 18 or more to hit. Still borderline, though Piercing Strike would hit Reflex Def on 12 or more. Almost right.

Finally Joe is level 26, has increased Dex at 1/4 levels. Dex is now 24. Again, tries to stick a knife between Von Evil's ribs. 16 + 4 + 8 + 1 == 29. Now hits on 15 or higher, and Piercing Strike goes in on 9+. Ok, that seems about right, yes?

Unified mechanic it is!

Now, I didn't work out damage dealt or anything; I was more concerned about what the rogue's chances were to hit Sr. Pit Fiend with various different mathematical models. I do think your weapon is on the low side; by 11th level, the warlock mentioned in the Magic Items blog post already had a +3 weapon and the current thinking is the math boils down to being +1 for every 3 levels or so. Conveniently, that would wind up with +10 weapons at level 30, which is the top end of current Epic weapon bonuses, so it makes sense.

 

[Puggins]

Wow... well, you gotta forgive an aging 1er for still thinking of +5 as the pinnacle of weapons.

But +8 would make a lot more sense in that regard. Crimson Edge would hit 30% of the time, which ain't horrible given the advantage it gives, and we haven't seen any of the paragon or epic powers.

Still, that Pit Fiend is not a pushover.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

i bet assumed magical bonus is level/4 otherwise you end up with 2/5 of your power depending on magical equip.

1/3 seems a lot better...

 

[WhatGravitas]

Still, that Pit Fiend is not a pushover.

Especially since it's an 'Elite' monster, counting as two monsters. Of four. So a "reasonable encounter" would involve two Pit Fiends, if the rogue is on 26th level (plus his friends, of course).

Cheers, LT.

 

[mach1.9pants]

yeah Crimson Edge is a level 9 power while the pit fiend is level 25, a big difference. 3E terms a spell useable at level 6 (3rd level, lightening bolt 6d6) vs a CR 16 or so monster.

 

[catsclaw227]

A rogue who beats the Pit Fiend's initiative will swing in with a Crimson Edge vs. Fortitude roll of +24 (aura) versus 42.

On an 18+, he inflicts 2d4 + 10 + 5d6 + 7 = 40 damage, and puts in a DOT of ~7 hp / round or so.

On a 17-, he inflicts 20.

OK, so he uses his 9th level Crimson Edge "per encounter" attack one round for 20 damage on a miss, and the next round he does his 26th level Ultraman Tumble Sneak FireBlade "per encounter" attack for 60 damage and Combat Advantage on a hit the next round.

EDIT: And this is just one of four PCs dealing the smackdown.

 

[Stormtalon]

I also have a suspicion based on skimming thru SWSE that certain classes get "freebie" increases to primary stats every so often, so the rogue's Dex may very well be higher than what we're using for calculations. We're also not taking into consideration things like Flanking and other situational bonuses, but I don't really think we need to to get a good idea of the basics at this point.

 

[Sphyre]

As long as we're speculating:

26th level rogue, started with 18 dex, now has 24, wielding a dagger +5, for a dex attack check of +26.

Not including any other bonuses he might have gotten from his class through the levels, if there are some.

A rogue who beats the Pit Fiend's initiative will swing in with a Crimson Edge vs. Fortitude roll of +24 (aura) versus 42.

Fortitude seems to be the Pit Fiends strength, while the rogue's strength is to attack the Dex. Being as he's using a heroic tier ability as opposed to an epic tier ability, Crimson edge is probably not his best choice of abilities to use.

On an 18+, he inflicts 2d4 + 10 + 5d6 + 7 = 40 damage, and puts in a DOT of ~7 hp / round or so.

Assuming you don't do 1/2 character level in damage in addition to all attacks, as seems to be a common presumption.

Meanwhile, he has around 150hp or so, and is taking 15 damage from the aura per round. He also has to deal with the summoned minions and the Pit Fiend's attacks.

We have a very incomplete picture, but the Pit Fiend looks a lot more dangerous than it initially did.

It initially didn't look very powerful? That's because people looked at it through the eyes of 3e 9th level spells vs it, as opposed to 4e characters not getting iterative attacks or dealing 2000 damage whenever they want to nova.

I'd surmise that characters get quite a few more tricks up their sleeves to help it handle the pit fiend better, but it still won't be a walk in the park.