D&D 5E Order Vs Twilight Cleric. Neo Warlord Abuse?

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Starting a campaign at level 3. Is twilight the best? If you couldn’t take twilight what would your choice be. Campaign will be in exandria and I’m choosing tortle so armor isn’t a factor
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Necro this thread
Starting a campaign at level 3. Is twilight the best? If you couldn’t take twilight what would your choice be. Campaign will be in exandria and I’m choosing tortle so armor isn’t a factor

Twilight the best for casual yse.

Order cleric know what you're doing with a rogue ir sharpshooter fighter/Ranger probably better seeing both in play.

Fae touched feat grab silvery barbs or bless level 1, tashas cleric rules used. Maximize the amount of spells you can cast that target others
 

jgsugden

Legend
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Starting a campaign at level 3. Is twilight the best? If you couldn’t take twilight what would your choice be. Campaign will be in exandria and I’m choosing tortle so armor isn’t a factor
If the game is set in Exandria, I'd take the opportunity to 'sample the local fruit' and play one of the subclasses designed for the setting. Blood Domain is interesting.

You don't need to select a powerhouse build to have a great game, but I find that the Order Domain is the most offensively powerful if you have allies that can deal a big hit (like a paladin or rogue). It also wins you approval from your allies as you're giving them a chance to shine. To me, it results in the most fun.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
If the game is set in Exandria, I'd take the opportunity to 'sample the local fruit' and play one of the subclasses designed for the setting. Blood Domain is interesting.

You don't need to select a powerhouse build to have a great game, but I find that the Order Domain is the most offensively powerful if you have allies that can deal a big hit (like a paladin or rogue). It also wins you approval from your allies as you're giving them a chance to shine. To me, it results in the most fun.

Bonus action bless or reaction silvery barbs and voice of authority is silly.

In CoS dropped a slow on 6 opponents landed it on 5.

Cleared the 3 hags out of the windmill level 3. Death house wasn't as bad as feared either.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Bonus action bless or reaction silvery barbs and voice of authority is silly.

In CoS dropped a slow on 6 opponents landed it on 5.

Cleared the 3 hags out of the windmill level 3. Death house wasn't as bad as feared either.
While Embodiment of Law for those bonus action spells is nice, it is a bit underpowered if you don't have a main action that is strong and can be used with the bonus action spell. If you swap a strong bonus action and weak action for a strong action and weak bonus action you're not really gaining that much.

To that end, I found that dropping one level of Cleric of Order on an Archer PC that has spell slots is a ridiculously strong option. I played a Gloomstalker Ranger to 5, then took 1 level of Cleric of Order. At 3rd level I gained that Gloomstalker attack and stealth abilities. At 4 I gained Sharpshooter. At 5 I gained Multiattack and 2nd level spell spells. At 6th level I gained the ability to turn my spell slots into bonus action "I heal you for a small bit and give you an attack". Then 7 through 11 were Sorcerer levels that gave me more bonus action spells (especially at 9th when I could metamagic quicken some spells) and eventually haste. That PC ended up being a real powerhouse. It wasn't my goal to build an optimized PC, but that was a pretty strong contender for one of my most powerful PCs.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
While Embodiment of Law for those bonus action spells is nice, it is a bit underpowered if you don't have a main action that is strong and can be used with the bonus action spell. If you swap a strong bonus action and weak action for a strong action and weak bonus action you're not really gaining that much.

To that end, I found that dropping one level of Cleric of Order on an Archer PC that has spell slots is a ridiculously strong option. I played a Gloomstalker Ranger to 5, then took 1 level of Cleric of Order. At 3rd level I gained that Gloomstalker attack and stealth abilities. At 4 I gained Sharpshooter. At 5 I gained Multiattack and 2nd level spell spells. At 6th level I gained the ability to turn my spell slots into bonus action "I heal you for a small bit and give you an attack". Then 7 through 11 were Sorcerer levels that gave me more bonus action spells (especially at 9th when I could metamagic quicken some spells) and eventually haste. That PC ended up being a real powerhouse. It wasn't my goal to build an optimized PC, but that was a pretty strong contender for one of my most powerful PCs.

Order cleric spell list is mostly enchantment spells. And bless.

Throw in command. Hold person, compulsion and dominate person.

Bless is its usual effect, bonus action and grant an attack.

Hold person and follow up with sacred flame. Auto fail and with tashas 3d8 damage at lvl 8, 2d8 lvl 6.

Or use a weapon advantage to hit, free critical.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
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Starting a campaign at level 3. Is twilight the best? If you couldn’t take twilight what would your choice be. Campaign will be in exandria and I’m choosing tortle so armor isn’t a factor
Generally, most cleric domains play fairly differently, and most are really solid.

The more offensively oriented domains I'd recommend (no particular order).
  • Death
  • Light
  • Tempest
  • Order
  • War (honorable mention)

The more defensively oriented domains I'd recommend.
  • Life
  • Twilight

I'm going to compare and contrast a bit.
  • Death - makes cantrips really appealing. A good opening round with death cleric at level 3 might be something like inflict wounds (2nd level slot) + Channel Divinity: Touch of Death to do 4d10+11 damage (avg 33) assuming you hit.
  • Light - Nice AOE for channel divinity and gets fireball. Decent other abilities. Nice combo is you can also use spiritual weapon and the channel divinity on the same turn for improved action economy. Less dependent on concentration than other clerics.
  • Tempest - Channel Divinity Max damage on shatter/call lightning lets you hit like a truck, but not really that much harder than fireball. Tempest gets a bit better control style spells. Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm and Ice Storm are all deceptively strong in the control department.
  • Order - With a good part comp you can use rogue, barbarian or archer ranger to do 3d6+3 or 2d6+5, 1d8+1d6+3 while still attacking with a cantrip or simple weapon yourself. Potential for something like a turn 1 that does 20 damage, while also granting an ally a buff like +2 AC. Unlike the other clerics, this can be done for every spell slot you have if desired. and typically gets better with higher level rogues or magical weapons. Contrast with using that 1st level slot on something like inflict wounds (16.5 damage) and you can see it's 'better'. Additionally order clerics get solid control options, the channel divinity and access to slow spell are both good.
  • War - Channel Divinity: Guided Strike + Guiding Bolt is an amazing combo (or inflict wounds). It let's you open up combat almost guaranteeing a high damage hit. Can be done once per short rest (twice at level 6). However, means little is left for healing. The ability to get some bonus action attacks is nice.

  • Twilight - great abilities all around - however, the biggest downside is turn 1 in combat is often going to be spent starting up your channel divinity. Where the other clerics are doing things like fireball, maximized shatter, or death clerics huge melee damage hit, you are stuck doing nothing really strong offensively. *I should note that sometimes you'll be able to prebuff the Twilight Sanctuary. However, other clerics would pre-buff something like spirit guardians or bless, so maybe not quite as strong action economy wise. Also, Twilight Sanctuary encourages the DM to focus fire more to chew through the temp hp so that he can challenge the party in an encounter. So while a strong ability, you may find the ability has a fairly natural tactical counter.
  • Life - Life is a very boring Cleric to play and most people play it wrong. You should be using his spells mostly for offense and using the channel divinity to keep allies up. You should be using very few healing spells, making your non-channel divinity features not count for much. That said this means you function as a strong healer while getting to use all your slots for buff/offense/control. While Life Clerics don't have a ton of options there (thus the boring part) they do shine due to the number of slots they can throw at things while still being a great healer. One suggestion here is to use one higher level slot to cast Aid on your lower hp party members, as it means your channel divinity can do more for them.

Other considerations with clerics
Fey touched is really good - silvery barbs is an amazing spell
Lucky - works great for any cleric wanting to land guiding bolt or inflict wounds
Resilient Con - concentration is important for many clerics
Picking up Booming Blade via any feat is good for any Cleric that's going to be attacking alot.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Generally, most cleric domains play fairly differently, and most are really solid.

The more offensively oriented domains I'd recommend (no particular order).
  • Death
  • Light
  • Tempest
  • Order
  • War (honorable mention)

The more defensively oriented domains I'd recommend.
  • Life
  • Twilight

I'm going to compare and contrast a bit.
  • Death - makes cantrips really appealing. A good opening round with death cleric at level 3 might be something like inflict wounds (2nd level slot) + Channel Divinity: Touch of Death to do 4d10+11 damage (avg 33) assuming you hit.
  • Light - Nice AOE for channel divinity and gets fireball. Decent other abilities. Nice combo is you can also use spiritual weapon and the channel divinity on the same turn for improved action economy. Less dependent on concentration than other clerics.
  • Tempest - Channel Divinity Max damage on shatter/call lightning lets you hit like a truck, but not really that much harder than fireball. Tempest gets a bit better control style spells. Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm and Ice Storm are all deceptively strong in the control department.
  • Order - With a good part comp you can use rogue, barbarian or archer ranger to do 3d6+3 or 2d6+5, 1d8+1d6+3 while still attacking with a cantrip or simple weapon yourself. Potential for something like a turn 1 that does 20 damage, while also granting an ally a buff like +2 AC. Unlike the other clerics, this can be done for every spell slot you have if desired. and typically gets better with higher level rogues or magical weapons. Contrast with using that 1st level slot on something like inflict wounds (16.5 damage) and you can see it's 'better'. Additionally order clerics get solid control options, the channel divinity and access to slow spell are both good.
  • War - Channel Divinity: Guided Strike + Guiding Bolt is an amazing combo (or inflict wounds). It let's you open up combat almost guaranteeing a high damage hit. Can be done once per short rest (twice at level 6). However, means little is left for healing. The ability to get some bonus action attacks is nice.

  • Twilight - great abilities all around - however, the biggest downside is turn 1 in combat is often going to be spent starting up your channel divinity. Where the other clerics are doing things like fireball, maximized shatter, or death clerics huge melee damage hit, you are stuck doing nothing really strong offensively. *I should note that sometimes you'll be able to prebuff the Twilight Sanctuary. However, other clerics would pre-buff something like spirit guardians or bless, so maybe not quite as strong action economy wise. Also, Twilight Sanctuary encourages the DM to focus fire more to chew through the temp hp so that he can challenge the party in an encounter. So while a strong ability, you may find the ability has a fairly natural tactical counter.
  • Life - Life is a very boring Cleric to play and most people play it wrong. You should be using his spells mostly for offense and using the channel divinity to keep allies up. You should be using very few healing spells, making your non-channel divinity features not count for much. That said this means you function as a strong healer while getting to use all your slots for buff/offense/control. While Life Clerics don't have a ton of options there (thus the boring part) they do shine due to the number of slots they can throw at things while still being a great healer. One suggestion here is to use one higher level slot to cast Aid on your lower hp party members, as it means your channel divinity can do more for them.

Other considerations with clerics
Fey touched is really good - silvery barbs is an amazing spell
Lucky - works great for any cleric wanting to land guiding bolt or inflict wounds
Resilient Con - concentration is important for many clerics
Picking up Booming Blade via any feat is good for any Cleric that's going to be attacking alot.

Nature and Arcana can do surprisingly well in beat down department. Druid cantrips or wizard cantrips eg booming blade keyed off window unlike say a high elf.

Otherwise good advice. We generally do 16 wisdom, 14 dex and con, medium armor key off wisdom.
 

I don't have experience with a Twilight Cleric over level 9, but up til that point it was pretty busted.
I've seen one played up to 20. It gets even more horribly busted at high levels.
I don’t think twilight clerics are that bad if you just focus fire more.
Focusing fire on the twilight cleric is one of the reasons they are so bust. They make perfect tanks. Just sit there with their shield up spamming heals on themselves whist the rest of the party do whatever they like without worrying about defence at all. The temporary hp ability is basically a super taunt power. Enemies can't ignore them.

Never seen an Order cleric played, and it's not something I would want to play myself.

Twilight now has the honour of being the only subclass with a permanent ban from my game (and no one questions why).
 
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