D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Charge Problems [restarted - got too far off-topic]

[Artoomis]

This has been brought up before, but only partially, I think.

In 3.5e 3 things have been added to charge, two of which conflict with other rules (or otherwise make no sense) and are not a needed change anyway.

1. You cannot charge though "difficult terrain." Thus seems a restrictive change, but I guess it's okay.

2. You cannot charge through friendlies. You can , however, go right through opponents who choose to let you go by if you Overrun. This is a change that just does not make sense and cannot really be justified without a change or elimination of Overrun. Why should opponents be able to get out of your way but allies not? We won't be using this change in our group.

3. You must move directly toward the designated opponent. This is a problem because the Ride-by Attack feat lets you continue your charge after the attack, but makes no provision for going through your opponent. This does not seem to be a needed change and disallows the archetype mounted lance joust-type combat. Our group won't use this change either, we will keep the old rule that you must go in a straight line, but must stop when you threaten your designated opponent.

We might, instead, use a modified Ride-by Attack that would let you charge in such a way as to "ride by" your opponent instead of right at him.

EDIT - here's a modified Ride-by Attack:

RIDE-BY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge (except that you do not have to move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent) and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Normal: You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent and your charge ends there.
Special: A fighter may select Ride-By Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Given the change to Rhino Hide armor these last two changes seem to be attempting to fix a non-existent problem

Thoughts?

 

[Number47]

1) Not charge through difficult terrain. Okay, makes sense.

2) Cannot charge through allies, but can overrun through allies. Charge and overrun can also be combined. Not a problem, in my opinion. If you want the benefit of charging through allies, you will have to take the penalty of also performing an overrun. That could quite likely end with you flat on your butt and suffer prone and charge penalties.

3) You must move directly at your opponent and must move to the closest space from which you can attack your opponent. Still not a problem. The first have just makes it extra clear that text stating straight line movement only. The second part says you have to move to the closest space. The closest space is not necessarily the one that forms a direct line through your opponent's square. In fact, because you get a free diagonal move during movement, there should usually be two or three square of equal distance. So a ride-by charger could simply take the square that is to the left or right and still meet all conditions for charging.

 

[Saeviomagy]

1) Not charge through difficult terrain. Okay, makes sense.

2) Cannot charge through allies, but can overrun through allies. Charge and overrun can also be combined. Not a problem, in my opinion. If you want the benefit of charging through allies, you will have to take the penalty of also performing an overrun. That could quite likely end with you flat on your butt and suffer prone and charge penalties.

This doesn't matter one bit - if they're your ally, then they can just choose to get out of the way of the overrun attack.

3) You must move directly at your opponent and must move to the closest space from which you can attack your opponent. Still not a problem. The first have just makes it extra clear that text stating straight line movement only. The second part says you have to move to the closest space. The closest space is not necessarily the one that forms a direct line through your opponent's square. In fact, because you get a free diagonal move during movement, there should usually be two or three square of equal distance. So a ride-by charger could simply take the square that is to the left or right and still meet all conditions for charging.

Also, I think this was always the rule.

 

[Artoomis]

Also, I think this was always the rule.

Nope. The rule was that you had to stop in the first square where you threaten the opponent. Not the same thing at all. You could choose any straight line that included a spot where you would threaten your opponent.

Now you must go directly at you opponent ("... move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent ... First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. ")

The difference is not trivial, especially if you have a reach weapon. Under 3.0, you could choose your charge more tactically, going directly at, or right or left of, your opponent. This is no longer true.

It is still possible you might have a choice of two equidistant squares now, true, but pretty much you have to go straight at your opponent.

This makes Ride-by Attack nearly useless as written.

 

[Pielorinho]

2) Cannot charge through allies, but can overrun through allies. Charge and overrun can also be combined. Not a problem, in my opinion. If you want the benefit of charging through allies, you will have to take the penalty of also performing an overrun. That could quite likely end with you flat on your butt and suffer prone and charge penalties.

First, technically you can't overrun through allies:

With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round.

Second, what penalty would you face if you attempted an overrun against an "opponent" (an ally that you've decided to hate temporarily so you can make it through her space) and she chose to step aside? Looks to me like you would have no penalty at all.

That's my beef with the rules: you can get around it, but only by considering your ally to be an opponent. Should just say you can overrun a target, and make mention of this option under the charge rules (i.e., you can only charge through an ally who chooses to avoid you, and you can only charge through one creature, ally or opponent, per round).

Daniel

 

[Nail]

This makes Ride-by Attack nearly useless as written.

Correction: "nearly, completely, in all but the most trivia circumstances, or against easily killed targets, ....."

(but seriously)

Charge is the only mechanic which forbids movement through the space of an ally. I think it's pretty telling that others, including bull-rush, withdraw, overrun, and squeezing, do not. It's really too bad there are so many clearly explained examples (and diagrams) of the charge mechanic in the book....otherwise I'd be tempted to say it was a typo.

As it is, it's a "problematic" rule at best.

The second, related, problem is the "closest square" requirement. Can any one think of why this was added? Is there some munchkin combo (not involving Rhinohide armor, please) that this was intended to squelch?

I've got a Ride-by Attack paladin PC that want's to know!

 

[DrSpunj]

I've got a Ride-by Attack paladin PC that want's to know!

As the interested Riding Dog riding Halfling Paladin in question, can anyone provide any designer (i.e. Andy Collins) input to shed light on this subject?

With the exception of Rhino Hide Smackdowns, was Charging so out of control in the majority of games that it needed these additional restrictions?

I can easily understand the difficult terrain rule, and that is probably something I would've ruled on the spot if the situation had come up in 3.0, but the "Charging through Allies" and the "Only the Closest Square" rules strike me frustratingly unnecessary and overly restrictive. The former doesn't jive with the rest of the rules and the latter removes all the tactics associated with the Ride-by Attack (once it's been Rule 0'd to be useful in the first place). I actually thought my mounted combats options were going to slightly increase given that my Halfling's lance now actually has reach like the "big boys"! (Yes, I had lance envy, I admit it! )

DrSpunj

No, I didn't really mean the river, I meant the animal thank-you-very-much!

 

[Storminator]

Nope. The rule was that you had to stop in the first square where you threaten the opponent. Not the same thing at all. You could choose any straight line that included a spot where you would threaten your opponent.

Now you must go directly at you opponent ("... move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent ... First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. ")

The difference is not trivial, especially if you have a reach weapon. Under 3.0, you could choose your charge more tactically, going directly at, or right or left of, your opponent. This is no longer true.

It is still possible you might have a choice of two equidistant squares now, true, but pretty much you have to go straight at your opponent.

This makes Ride-by Attack nearly useless as written.

If you stick to the "closest space from which you can attack..." rule, you usually aren't limited to one space. So if you have more than one choice, you can still find one that allows you to ride by.

Example
Y=you
F=foe
A=closest space...

..........A
Y........AF
..........A

Any one of the A's tie for shortest path possible to attack (reach not included, the effect is the same...), so you can take the top or bottom ones and continue past.

The overrun rule is stupid tho. They should have caught that and fixed it.

PS

 

[Jhyrryl]

It's interesting to note that in the rules for step 2 of resolving an overrun it says:

If you were attempting to overrun as part of a charge, you may keep moving. (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.)

Considering that said rules were expanded by 3 times their original length, I'd be forced to think that the section in parentheses must have received some attention. Based on that, I'm ruling that overrunning an ally is a completely valid option.

 

[DrSpunj]

If you stick to the "closest space from which you can attack..." rule, you usually aren't limited to one space. So if you have more than one choice, you can still find one that allows you to ride by.

Example
Y=you
F=foe
A=closest space...

..........A
Y........AF
..........A

Any one of the A's tie for shortest path possible to attack (reach not included, the effect is the same...), so you can take the top or bottom ones and continue past.

Except that the rule about Closest Creature on rPHB pg. 147 in the Measuring Distance section of Tactical Movement says:

When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.

Which means the charging PC has absolutely no control over the path of their charge. It's a binary option under the Core Rules: there is a single path and it's either open for you to make a charge or it isn't. Remember people, "Options, not restrictions!"

And your diagram above illustrates very well the problem with Ride-by Attack, as the "Closest Square" would be the middle lane, leading directly to your target. Without using Overrun (which in spirit totally defeats the ability to ride BY with your attack) Ride-by Attack isn't an option under the Core Rules.

DrSpunj