D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Charge Problems [restarted - got too far off-topic]

[Artoomis]

Now you're just being silly. I think it is fairly obvious that the rule states that when two people are equidistant from a location, not when two locations are equidistant to you. In other words, if a spell affects the closest person, and there are two people equally close, then it affects one of them randomly. Reading into it that you may not choose your own path while moving is such a tortured interpretation I can hear the rules scream.

No, I am not being silly.



From a previous post:

The rule about Closest Creature on PHB pg. 147 in the Measuring Distance section of Tactical Movement says:

When it’s important to determine the closest square or creature to a location, if two squares or creatures are equally close, randomly determine which one counts as closest by rolling a die.

In 3.5 charging, you must determine the closest square to you opponent and charge to that square.

Which, as previously stated, conflicts with other 3.5 rules.

 

[Camarath]

Change "occupied squares" in this statement to "square" (singular). As I stated in my last post, by the Core rules you can only overrun once per round, so you'd better hope your target isn't the third in line.

True you can only overrun one foe per round but that does not stop your charge it just prevents you from overruning another foe in the same round. Your allies can always chose to let you by and IMO would not count as a overrun attempt. I think you can read the overrun rules to say that it is not an overrun if your opponent (or ally) lets you past.

Qoute page 157 3.5 PHB under "Step Two: Opponent Avoids?"
"In either case, the overrun attempt doesn't count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent's square)."

IMO this means that it does not count aginst Overruns provision aginst multiple overrun attempts in the same round.

 

[Artoomis]

True you can only overrun one foe per round but that does not stop your charge it just prevents you from overruning another foe in the same round. Your allies can always chose to let you by and IMO would not count as a overrun attempt. I think you can read the overrun rules to say that it is not an overrun if your opponent (or ally) lets you past.

Qoute page 157 3.5 PHB under "Step Two: Opponent Avoids?"
"In either case, the overrun attempt doesn't count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent's square)."

IMO this means that it does not count aginst Overruns provision aginst multiple overrun attempts in the same round.

That's reasonable, but it conflicts with the Charge rule that states you cannot charge if allies are in your path.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement ...if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through ... a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

It's a flat out contradiction that needs errata.

 

[Caliban]

That's reasonable, but it conflicts with the Charge rule that states you cannot charge if allies are in your path.



It's a flat out contradiction that needs errata.

Perhaps the simplest errata would be that you can't charge through more than one ally or one enemy (when using Overrun).


Basically, just bring it in line with the Overrun action.

 

[Storminator]

Unless you house-rule, yes, the options are indeed taken away by virtue of:

1. You may not choose a square - equidistant ones randomly decided which is closest.

Insert my comment about hoping to god you DM doesn't take your ride-by attack away RIGHT HERE. Nothing a PC does should be randomly chosen.

2. You cannot take a sqaure that mihgt not be closest - like to use a reach weapon in ride-by mode, for example.

I don't think it means that you have to charge to the closest square, I think it means you charge to the closest from which you can attack. So for a reach weapon, that means one row back. It would be lame if you charged with a (whatever they renamed the longspear), and you had to go to the closest square...and you couldn't attack because you are too close.

I suggest you sit at the game and ride-by just like you always have. See if your DM complains. If he doesn't drop it.

PS

 

[reapersaurus]

I'm curious:
How many people actually play by the 'rule' that requires you to stop as soon as you can hit the opponent?

As written, doesn't this prevent the cinematic (and cool) maneuver where you charge the opponent, then Bull Rush them off the cliff (or into the well, etc)?

The Bull Rush rules don't specifically nullify the Charge maneuver's restriction: they just mention you get a +2 if charging, therefore creating a similar rules contradiction, don't they?

I might be missing something, though....

[edit: oops - I'm only referring to 3.0 rules, but it's a similar quandry]

 

[Artoomis]

Perhaps the simplest errata would be that you can't charge through more than one ally or one enemy (when using Overrun).


Basically, just bring it in line with the Overrun action.

That would work, and it would be in line with what seesm to be teh 3.5 goal of really restricting the charge action.

That still leaves the problem of the "Ride by Attack" feat being useless since you cannot ride "through" but you end up blocked by your opponenet in most 3.5 charges. Ah, well.

Hopefully this will be addressed in errat or a new FAQ. I predict some sort of very odd response to this - like maybe a FAQ entry that "clarifies" this issue by changing the rules.

 

[Caliban]

That would work, and it would be in line with what seesm to be teh 3.5 goal of really restricting the charge action.

That still leaves the problem of the "Ride by Attack" feat being useless since you cannot ride "through" but you end up blocked by your opponenet in most 3.5 charges. Ah, well.

Wouldn't the Trample feat allow you to just ride over your opponent after you charge them with the Ride By attack, for even more damage? (I haven't looked at the feat recently, so I may be mistaken.)

Edit: Hmm... it says you can trample as part of an overrun. Could you be considered to be "overruning as part of the charge" when riding away from your target with ride by attack?

 

[Artoomis]

Wouldn't the Trample feat allow you to just ride over your opponent after you charge them with the Ride By attack, for even more damage? (I haven't looked at the feat recently, so I may be mistaken.)

No - Trample denies your opponent the opportunity to avoid you during an Overrun. you also get one hoof attack @ +4 (for the bad guy being prone).

 

[AGGEMAM]

In 3e, if you couldn't run because of uneven terrain or whatnot, you couldn't charge. No real change.

However not being able to pass through friendly squares is a lot more severe. And btw, it is impossible now to charge through a friendly square. 1stly because a friend is not an opponent so you can't overrun him. 2ndly because it flatly says it in the tactical movement section.

From the SRD 3½

Moving through a Square
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging.

Note that a friendly character has nothing to do with your feelings towards the character, it is the character in question feelings towards you that counts here.

And not being able to decide yourself which space is closest if two are equally close is another severe oversight.