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[3.5] Enormous number of changes - some make me wonder why...

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Well, I'm skimming through the PHB and I have to admit that I'm amazed at the vast number of changes they've made to spells.

It wasn't just the obvious problem ones that they've fixed, there is a whole range which are different now.

Burning hands is a 15ft cone instead of a 10ft semicircle.

Shocking Grasp does 1d6 per caster level (max 5d6) electric damage (touch attack)

Lightning bolt is now a line attack with a fixed range of 120ft rather than the option of Medium range and 5ft wide or half that range and 10ft wide. It is no longer as good at clearing our wide corridors, and this change seems to have been to fit in with the battlegrid description of spell effects.

Shillelagh - happily specifies that it affects both ends of the quarterstaff at once (yes!) but it ups the damage by two size categories (thus a medium qstaff does 2d6(!)). Presumably a change to give different benefits to Small and Medium druids?

Globe of Invulnerability *doesn't* negate previously cast spells, so the wizard could buff himself up with his 1st-3rd level buffs and *then* sit inside a globe (although it does eliminate it's usefulness as a counter to being silenced

Endure Elements only protects from adverse cold and hot weather, not against damaging energy at all.

Sleep is a full round casting time and a max of 4HD who all get a saving throw - that used to be a real killer spell and now its almost completely useless!

Cone spells (like Cone of Cold) all seem to have a fixed range

The Enlarge spell metamagic has been redefined to only increase the range of spells without a fixed range (i.e. if they are close, medium or long it works, if it is a cone or line it doesn't work). Wonder why they wanted to stop people getting longer lightning bolts and cone effects? I think that is a change I'll be ignoring (I wonder how long my list of ignored changes will be?). Oh, I know, it is so we might take the *Widen* feat instead to increase the area of Cones. At +3 caster levels :rolleyes:

There are many more I could mention - some of which were necessary IMO (blade barrier becomes a barrier rather than a brilliant area attack spell, harm and heal and haste become more manageable as we know and were expecting)

On the other hand we know about spells being broken up (emotion, symbol) or changing level (shades, Greater Shadow Conjuration etc) which particularly hurts sorcerers (and I guess bards), and the changing of spell levels in most cases seems really pointless. If they wanted some more high level illusions, create new stuff! Don't cause problems for existing PCs!


I almost get the feeling that the designers got a bit carried away here amongst the spells. Some changes were good and necessary, sure, but there is a whole range of other spells which have been changed when there doesn't seem to have been a pressing need to do so. I've not decided yet whether I think this is a good thing or a bad thing.

I'm surprised that their approach hasn't been to extend and add new stuff in preference to changing old stuff except in the bare minimum of cases.
 

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Ralts Bloodthorne

First Post
Plane Sailing said:
Well, I'm skimming through the PHB and I have to admit that I'm amazed at the vast number of changes they've made to spells.

WHOAH!
Someone making observations based on the PHB IN thier hand!!
This is a first.

It wasn't just the obvious problem ones that they've fixed, there is a whole range which are different now.

Can you let us in on the different feats, skills, and character class changes too? If you have the time?

Burning hands is a 15ft cone instead of a 10ft semicircle.

Shocking Grasp does 1d6 per caster level (max 5d6) electric damage (touch attack)

Lightning bolt is now a line attack with a fixed range of 120ft rather than the option of Medium range and 5ft wide or half that range and 10ft wide. It is no longer as good at clearing our wide corridors, and this change seems to have been to fit in with the battlegrid description of spell effects.

Shillelagh - happily specifies that it affects both ends of the quarterstaff at once (yes!) but it ups the damage by two size categories (thus a medium qstaff does 2d6(!)). Presumably a change to give different benefits to Small and Medium druids?

Globe of Invulnerability *doesn't* negate previously cast spells, so the wizard could buff himself up with his 1st-3rd level buffs and *then* sit inside a globe (although it does eliminate it's usefulness as a counter to being silenced

Endure Elements only protects from adverse cold and hot weather, not against damaging energy at all.

Sleep is a full round casting time and a max of 4HD who all get a saving throw - that used to be a real killer spell and now its almost completely useless!

Cone spells (like Cone of Cold) all seem to have a fixed range

The Enlarge spell metamagic has been redefined to only increase the range of spells without a fixed range (i.e. if they are close, medium or long it works, if it is a cone or line it doesn't work). Wonder why they wanted to stop people getting longer lightning bolts and cone effects? I think that is a change I'll be ignoring (I wonder how long my list of ignored changes will be?). Oh, I know, it is so we might take the *Widen* feat instead to increase the area of Cones. At +3 caster levels :rolleyes:

There are many more I could mention - some of which were necessary IMO (blade barrier becomes a barrier rather than a brilliant area attack spell, harm and heal and haste become more manageable as we know and were expecting)

On the other hand we know about spells being broken up (emotion, symbol) or changing level (shades, Greater Shadow Conjuration etc) which particularly hurts sorcerers (and I guess bards), and the changing of spell levels in most cases seems really pointless. If they wanted some more high level illusions, create new stuff! Don't cause problems for existing PCs!

I wish they had followed that rule, but these changes aren't as horrible as everyone made them sound. The way the panic is, I thought my 3.0 books would be hunted down and eaten by the 3.5 books if I brought them home, leaving bloody confetti scattered around my front room....

I almost get the feeling that the designers got a bit carried away here amongst the spells. Some changes were good and necessary, sure, but there is a whole range of other spells which have been changed when there doesn't seem to have been a pressing need to do so. I've not decided yet whether I think this is a good thing or a bad thing.

I'm surprised that their approach hasn't been to extend and add new stuff in preference to changing old stuff except in the bare minimum of cases.

So, what else beyond the spells were changed?
Details, man, details!!!
 

EricNoah

Adventurer
Of course, there are those who think the revisions didn't go far enough... See the "Doom & Gloom" thread at RPG.net for an example.
 


Skaros

First Post
Re: Re: [3.5] Enormous number of changes - some make me wonder why...

Warlord Ralts said:

WHOAH!
Someone making observations based on the PHB IN thier hand!!
This is a first.
[/B]

Exactly my thought!

Might go down in history as the first person to spout off the intention to house rule something from 3.5 (enlarge spell) that actually had the book in front of him :)

LOL
 

drnuncheon

Explorer
Plane Sailing said:
Burning hands is a 15ft cone instead of a 10ft semicircle.

Good, now you can actually cast it without your opponents being right on top of you.


Shocking Grasp does 1d6 per caster level (max 5d6) electric damage (touch attack)

No more arguments on how Empower Spell works with it, I see - and although it's worse off at the lowest levels it remains a viable spell for longer.

Shillelagh - happily specifies that it affects both ends of the quarterstaff at once (yes!) but it ups the damage by two size categories (thus a medium qstaff does 2d6(!)). Presumably a change to give different benefits to Small and Medium druids?

Anyone else thinking that Giant druids are going to be scary? I know I am...

Globe of Invulnerability *doesn't* negate previously cast spells, so the wizard could buff himself up with his 1st-3rd level buffs and *then* sit inside a globe (although it does eliminate it's usefulness as a counter to being silenced

Nice! This makes the spell a heck of a lot more useful.

Endure Elements only protects from adverse cold and hot weather, not against damaging energy at all.

With the changes to how energy resistance works, this doesn't bother me much.


Sleep is a full round casting time and a max of 4HD who all get a saving throw - that used to be a real killer spell and now its almost completely useless!

Yeah - although sleep was always 'level 1 save or die'. Still, it's now even more useless at anything past 1st or 2nd level. Good thing that sorcerers can swap spells, that's the only reason they'd ever take it.


The Enlarge spell metamagic has been redefined to only increase the range of spells without a fixed range (i.e. if they are close, medium or long it works, if it is a cone or line it doesn't work). Wonder why they wanted to stop people getting longer lightning bolts and cone effects?

I like this one. It is a lot more valuable to increase the area a spell affects than it is to increase the range you can cast it at - with the increased area you can potentially catch several more targets.

Also, it was pretty wacky to have one feat increase range on some spells and increase area on others, while another feat just increased area - so this is a change to get rid of that senseless confusion.

J
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I'd be the first to admit that some of the changes which are painful to specialist wizards are completely necessary - shifting the spells around so that all schools got a choice of spells at all levels was long overdue and should have been handled in 3e really.

The slight powering up of some spells which seem lesser (e.g. shocking grasp) will probably turn out to be quite welcome in the long run.

I've noticed one candidate for errata already - the "regenerate" ability in the MM states that it doesn't help against attacks which don't do hp damage, e.g. disintegrate. Thing is, the big D does do hp damage now (2d6 per caster level, max of 40d6) so it looks like an edit was missed. Breaks the spell damage caps spectacularly!
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
From my initial look through the three books, it is the DMG that I like the best - the sections on terrain is utterly fantastic, as is the section on planes. I really appreciate having some ready-made terrain encounter tables too.

It may just be the more dramatically altered layout, but the DMG seems to be the most substantially changed and improved book of the three on my initial skimming.

I especially appreciate them putting the environment hazards and special ability section at the back, as that was the most common bit for me to try to find - time and time again :)

Cheers
 

seasong

First Post
Plane Sailing said:
Burning hands is a 15ft cone instead of a 10ft semicircle.
Hm, not quite the same image anymore. May rename this one Breathe Fire and keep both. Maybe drop the damage on the cone version.

Shocking Grasp does 1d6 per caster level (max 5d6) electric damage (touch attack)
Uh, wow. That's some impressive 1st level spell, there. Still, this is probably a good change, and a good cow to kill.

Lightning bolt is now a line attack with a fixed range of 120ft rather than the option of Medium range and 5ft wide or half that range and 10ft wide. It is no longer as good at clearing our wide corridors, and this change seems to have been to fit in with the battlegrid description of spell effects.
Not in my game. Bah!

Shillelagh - happily specifies that it affects both ends of the quarterstaff at once (yes!) but it ups the damage by two size categories (thus a medium qstaff does 2d6(!)). Presumably a change to give different benefits to Small and Medium druids?
That's kind of cool, actually. Except... aren't weapons classified in a non-size way now? How does this handle that?

Globe of Invulnerability *doesn't* negate previously cast spells, so the wizard could buff himself up with his 1st-3rd level buffs and *then* sit inside a globe (although it does eliminate it's usefulness as a counter to being silenced
Hm... big change, don't see a good reason for it. Oh well. I'll probably offer this as two variants of the same spell, with different tactical implications - the wizard can learn both and memorize one or the other, depending on whether he's wanting buffs and partial defense that day, or just a powerful defense.

Endure Elements only protects from adverse cold and hot weather, not against damaging energy at all.
Bah!

Sleep is a full round casting time and a max of 4HD who all get a saving throw - that used to be a real killer spell and now its almost completely useless!
Bah!

Cone spells (like Cone of Cold) all seem to have a fixed range
Bah!

The Enlarge spell metamagic has been redefined to only increase the range of spells without a fixed range (i.e. if they are close, medium or long it works, if it is a cone or line it doesn't work). Wonder why they wanted to stop people getting longer lightning bolts and cone effects? I think that is a change I'll be ignoring (I wonder how long my list of ignored changes will be?). Oh, I know, it is so we might take the *Widen* feat instead to increase the area of Cones. At +3 caster levels :rolleyes:
Bah!
 

alsih2o

First Post
Re: Re: [3.5] Enormous number of changes - some make me wonder why...

seasong said:


Not in my game. Bah!


Bah!

Bah!

Bah!

Bah!

wow, i have never known seasong to be so sheepish


ba-dump-ching!
 
Last edited:

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